Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President • Hacker News Board

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#111

Post by morgante » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 2:41 AM UTC

crazy1van wrote: post #108

morgante wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to call someone who advocates against abortion and same-sex marriages a libertarian.

> I don't think it's fair to call someone who advocates against abortion and same-sex marriages a libertarian. Regarding abortion: Libertarians believe in individual liberties. So if you believe that an unborn child is a person, it is very consistent with libertarian-ism to protect its life. The crux of the debate is when does does a fetus become a person. Regarding same-sex marriages: Again, relating this question t…

> So if you believe that an unborn child is a person, it is very consistent with libertarian-ism to protect its life.

Is it though? Most libertarians say the government shouldn't force you to feed a starving person, but banning abortion means forcing a mother to feed and care for another person (even if you consider a fetus a person).

> Regarding same-sex marriages:

Can you explain how a governmental (even at the state level) distinction between marriage types is consistent with libertarian philosophy?

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#112

Post by agorabinary » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 2:42 AM UTC

lubos wrote: post #30

This is not surprising. Rand Paul, similar to his father Ron Paul, has very libertarian political views which means they prefer no government involvement, not just in the Internet but anywhere. This is not as good as it sounds. For example, he doesn't support FED in controlling money supply. But FED was instrumental in making USD the most stable currency in the last 100 years. He doesn't like energy regulations and b…

1. The Federal Reserve is not an acronym. Neither is it an example of a successful government program, when it is explicitly a public-private institution that only serves to guarantee government blank-check spending and easy credit kickbacks to Wall Street.

2. If the free market dictating prices causes such rampant price gouging and monopolization, then why don't we see this in industries that are relatively deregulated like technology or hospitality, as opposed to the most regulated, ie. wall street? The power of industry disruption by nascent startups is systematically more powerful than regulators that have always, throughout history, been moved more by regulatory capture than by populist idealism.

3. The Paul's tend to favor the states deciding social issues.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#113

Post by natmaster » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 2:46 AM UTC

azar1 wrote: post #93

natmaster wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please leave your anti-science anti-intellectual comments outside of hacker news. "FED was instrumental in making USD the most stable currency in the last 100 years" - baseless argument. comparing fiat money to fiat money says nothing about efficacy of fiat money. "Too bad when California deregulated their energy market..." - http://www.tylervigen.com/ Furthermore, where does this money appear from? If the government…

"third-trimester abortions" - Excellent straw man. How about his proposed personhood legislation? https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s583?utm_campaign...

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0312.sullivan...

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#114

Post by mkautzm » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 2:47 AM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #50

lubos wrote: post #30

This is not surprising. Rand Paul, similar to his father Ron Paul, has very libertarian political views which means they prefer no government involvement, not just in the Internet but anywhere. This is not as good as it sounds. For example, he doesn't support FED in controlling money supply. But FED was instrumental in making USD the most stable currency in the last 100 years. He doesn't like energy regulations and b…

Alright, two things.. (1) It seems you are just dismissing him and his father have similar ideas, which aren't necessarily any crazier than every other politician ever (i.e. social security is so awesome). Rand and Ron Paul both supported STATES rights, which lets be honest, makes it possible to move between states and have different taxes, laws, and unique experiences. This leads me to my second point... (2) "His re…

That's the American dream if you were born into the means of achieving the American dream.

Libertarians seem to universally believe that everyone is just born with wealth, or that if you bootstraps hard enough, you are just bound to trip over wealth.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#115

Post by mkautzm » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 2:48 AM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #107

lubos wrote: post #30

This is not surprising. Rand Paul, similar to his father Ron Paul, has very libertarian political views which means they prefer no government involvement, not just in the Internet but anywhere. This is not as good as it sounds. For example, he doesn't support FED in controlling money supply. But FED was instrumental in making USD the most stable currency in the last 100 years. He doesn't like energy regulations and b…

Do you consider losing %98 of its value "stable"? The US Dollar has lost at least that, probably closer to %99.9999, though it's harder to measure now that the fed is not giving us reliable stats anymore. Do you realize the FED is a private bank, owned by the upper %1 of the %1? And that giving them an interest rate on ever dollar in circulation was probably the worst example of a government granted monopoly ever? Do…

> Do you consider losing %98 of its value "stable"?

Yeah, I don't understand how inflation works either.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#116

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 2:49 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #71

joshuapants wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you're grasping at straws. Good luck finding a single human anywhere that isn't biased in some way. I'm also not aware of any Libertarian Cabal documents stating that nobody with vaguely libertarian views can have a religion, or that in having a religion one is so tainted as to be unable to compartmentalize one's personal and professional lives.

I never said libertarians can't be religious. Rather, it's a fundamental tenant of libertarianism that you should not use the organ of government to enforce your religious views on others. On numerous occasions, Paul has referenced religious motivations for creating social policies. For example, he is opposed to same-sex marriage because it "offends him." Paul is not a libertarian. He's just a standard anti-Federalis…

"I believe in old-fashioned traditional marriage but I don't really think the government needs to be too involved in this..."

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/21967...

"Senator Paul believes marriage is an issue that should be dealt with at the state level,” political adviser Doug Stafford told The Daily Beast. “Nothing about his position has changed." Stafford later added: "Senator Paul does not want his guns or his marriage registered in Washington. He has said this repeatedly and consistently. Marriage is not a federal issue. It is an issue for state and local governments to deal with."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/28/rand-ditche...

According to the second quote, Paul is also opposed to federal opposite-sex marriage. That's pretty much a standard libertarian position.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#117

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 2:49 AM UTC

natmaster wrote: post #92

morgante wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Rand Paul is a libertarian (I was simply responding to the parent). As for abortion, even if you consider the fetus a "person," I don't see how a libertarian would make a good case for the government to force the mother to continue to sustain and provide for it. > Removing regulation over social issues from government IS a very libertarian philosophy. Delegating to the states is very different from remo…

> I don't see how a libertarian would make a good case for the government to force the mother to continue to sustain and provide for it. So all neglect laws should be removed? > The libertarian thing to do would be to ban such regulation. That requires a constitutional amendment. Those are not easy to get passed.

[deleted]

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#118

Post by natmaster » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 2:50 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #106

natmaster wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how a libertarian would make a good case for the government to force the mother to continue to sustain and provide for it. So all neglect laws should be removed? > The libertarian thing to do would be to ban such regulation. That requires a constitutional amendment. Those are not easy to get passed.

> So all neglect laws should be removed? I am not a libertarian, so I wouldn't. But several libertarians I know have said we so, and also argue that there should be no duty to feed the poor, etc. > The libertarian thing to do would be to ban such regulation. That requires a constitutional amendment. Those are not easy to get passed. That depends on what regulation we want passed. The First Amendment already includes…

"several libertarians I know have said we so" This is a first for me to hear, though it's important to note libertarians are individuals too, and have their own ideas! I have not found any libertarians promoting children as full-class citizens; so this is very new to hear this. Suffice it to say, I don't think that viewpoint is common.

"First Amendment ..." to the constitution. Are you just agreeing with me here?

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#119

Post by theonemind » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 2:50 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #54

lubos wrote: post #30

This is not surprising. Rand Paul, similar to his father Ron Paul, has very libertarian political views which means they prefer no government involvement, not just in the Internet but anywhere. This is not as good as it sounds. For example, he doesn't support FED in controlling money supply. But FED was instrumental in making USD the most stable currency in the last 100 years. He doesn't like energy regulations and b…

I don't think it's fair to call someone who advocates against abortion and same-sex marriages a libertarian.

People have an odd view of gay marriage, where people have some sort of right to marry who they choose. Marriage isn't a right, it's a privilege granted by society to try to promote nuclear families. They get tax breaks, etc. at the expense of anyone who doesn't prefer that family structure.

Ideally, these rights could be assigned piecemeal between any two individuals, with non-exclusion (i.e., polyamory is allowed.) Perhaps my spouse isn't the best at difficult decisions, and I'd prefer my stable son to be able to make difficult medical decisions, like whether I should be kept on life support. Perhaps I would like to file taxes jointly with my roommate for two years, if we shared household expenses.

In no way is granting gay marriage some kind of rights equalization, but an expansion of an already unfair system, so I oppose it, just as if white people could own black people, but not vice versa, I would not be in favor of allowing black people to own white people, and would oppose any such measure, while being in favor of real equalization by abolishing the system of anybody owning anybody.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#120

Post by defen » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 2:53 AM UTC

shitlord wrote: post #41

fleitz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's also against the President being allowed to execute US citizens with out charge or trial.

And against gay marriage, too! His defenders will claim that although he does not like it, he will still allow it. But that's not true either, because he will leave it to the states to decide (and about half of them will decide to ban it). Private prisons? Have at it. Urban poverty? Let the charities deal with it. Access to abortion? Similar response to gay marriage. The only reason he's popular on the internet is be…

What happens if the President hates abortion and gay marriage (serious question)? Does he have any power to repeal/overturn, other than having access to the bully pulpit? It's not like he can get elected and say "OK gay marriage is over now", which he could do to the NSA (whether he will is certainly up for debate).