In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas • Hacker News Board

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#111

Post by ticviking » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 4:16 PM UTC

Thriptic wrote: post #105

JohnBooty wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have had problems with people thinking I'm arguing or > attacking their ideas, when I am only looking for a > debate and a more thorough view of their ideas and > line of thinking. Noble intent, poor execution. Consider that people in oppressed groups (women, victims of sexual assault, ethnic minorities) have had their legitimacy questioned and denied throughout most if not all of history. And then along comes yo…

> Give them room to express their views, even if you think they're wrong, because this is something they are often denied the right to do. Everyone should have a platform to safely express their opinions, but if their opinions are incorrect then they should be challenged and debated. Statements shouldn't be protected from scrutiny just because they are being uttered by a woman or a minority.

> Everyone should have a platform to safely express their opinions, but if their opinions are incorrect then they should be challenged and debated. Statements shouldn't be protected from scrutiny just because they are being uttered by a woman or a minority.

Precisely this. Granting special exemption from the normal process of discourse and debate is infantilizing. Treating someone as your equal and expecting that they are capable of defending their ideas is not wrong, particularly when they share their ideas in the public sphere.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#112

Post by hnnewguy » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 4:18 PM UTC

throwaway9324 wrote: post #103

WalterSear wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: And yes please reaffirm what cowards you are by down-voting instead of replying. This part: This is a pretty bad opinion piece using scare quotes, personal attacks and anecdotal commentary. And this part: It's disappointing to see this up-voted since people here aren't interested in a debate, but just to affirming there own views on the subject. And some people are probably downvoting the vindictiveness and pre…

"This part" Do you want to refute my claim or do you don't think quality of the article is important? "And this part" I don't sympathize with people that actively constructs an environment where they will meet the least resistance. It's one thing if opinion pieces of different views on this subject was posted regularly, but they aren't. Quite the opposite. "the vindictiveness and prejudice" Maybe the biggest reason I…

>"Do you want to refute my claim or do you don't think quality of the article is important?"

Refute what claim? That you think it's a "bad piece"? That's an opinion, and you're entitled to it. There's nothing to refute.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#113

Post by ticviking » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 4:28 PM UTC

cheatsheet wrote: post #85

armenarmen wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always liked the adage "Offense is taken, not given"

I don't know if people who have not experienced it (or learned how to recognize the pattern of subconscious association) will ever understand it. It sucks being sucked into your own black hole and I do not believe trauma victims walk into their own black holes willingly. It's a state of mind and it can be learned to be dealt with, but it requires strength. There are lots of people who live assuming they are in contro…

Speaking as a survivor myself.

That is on me.

I can't control my first reaction, the feelings of panic, being trapped and so on. I can however choose what I do once I feel those things.

If I try to push responsibility for my safety onto others, or hold others accountable for MY psychological reactions is to insist that they participate in my treatment. It seems to be that if I need to draft my entire community in my treatment I may be going about it in the wrong way.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#114

Post by WalterSear » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

pkinsky wrote: post #108

tunesmith wrote: post #8

It wasn't so long ago that "trigger warning" wasn't even a common phrase. I remember thinking about this in college, though, because I was in a relationship with someone who would get angry at people for expressing input that was too closely related to recent private trauma she had been through. I didn't really understand it because I had always trained myself to judge the producer of input by the intent of the produ…

I'm a bit of an edge case here, as I'm more-or-less triggered by certain comments on Christianity. Let me explain: I'm Assyrian, a member of a middle eastern minority Christian ethnic group. Fortunately my grandparents emigrated from Iraq before Saddam. Many of us aren't so lucky. ISIS is known for their mass beheadings of Christians and bulldozing of Assyrian historical sites, among other atrocities. Some prominent…

You aren't an edge case - you are an exception. Your distress is being co-opted, to everyone's loss.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#115

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 4:37 PM UTC

littletimmy wrote: post #11

This is the end result of a culture that treats children like dainty chinadolls that are going to shatter at the first fracture. These kids are coddled since they are born to make sure they are "safe" and ferried endlessly from one constructive activity to another so they don't take any risk. Of course it will also be that they need "safe spaces" in college (basically extended high school) whenever they hear somethin…

[deleted]

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#116

Post by defen » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 4:39 PM UTC

bobcostas55 wrote: post #54

Nietzsche has a great bit on these people. The Gay Science #359.

Here's a contemporary quote from Oscar Wilde that hits at the same issue, in a way that's easier for modern readers to digest:

"I never came across anyone in whom the moral sense was dominant who was not heartless, cruel, vindictive, log-stupid, and entirely lacking in the smallest sense of humanity. Moral people, as they are termed, are simple beasts."

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#117

Post by throwaway9324 » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 4:43 PM UTC

hnnewguy wrote: post #112

throwaway9324 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This part" Do you want to refute my claim or do you don't think quality of the article is important? "And this part" I don't sympathize with people that actively constructs an environment where they will meet the least resistance. It's one thing if opinion pieces of different views on this subject was posted regularly, but they aren't. Quite the opposite. "the vindictiveness and prejudice" Maybe the biggest reason I…

> "Do you want to refute my claim or do you don't think quality of the article is important?" Refute what claim? That you think it's a "bad piece"? That's an opinion, and you're entitled to it. There's nothing to refute.

As I said I think it's a bad piece because it uses cheap rhetorical devices rather than providing a nuanced view of the subject. And, as I also said, I don't think this kind of angled article is appropriate if articles from the other angles of the same subject aren't being presented on HN.

Those who upvoted it probably have a different view or they don't think the quality of the article matters as long as they agree with it.

You can find almost every opinion possible on the Internet. They have no value unless there's an argument behind them. I'm not going to write an essay for deaf ears, but I did express my opinion with initial argumentation. So don't act like I didn't and there's nothing to refute.

Edit: I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it's grey at the bottom of the page. Talk about tolerance.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#118

Post by cheatsheet » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 4:43 PM UTC

dean wrote: post #107

cheatsheet wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sort of on the fence on this. On one hand, I do not like pursuing ignorance. On the other, I do not objectively know the difference between a mind that is repeatedly triggered by random noise that can immediately bring my mind back into a state of flipping between catatonia and hyper-stress/hyper-alert, and a mind that is able to control information flow and pursue it's goals (such as a phd and happiness in life…

> I think you need to add a little more empathetic wiggle room for things you may not understand entirely. You may be right that victims of trauma are not entirely understood. Even so, you seem to be suggesting that society _should_ "avoid provocative subjects entirely" and "pursue ignorance", as the parent puts it, to avoid upsetting victims of trauma. In the end, is that a strategy that will actually help any of us…

No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm in a forum talking about things related to my trauma, aren't I? Shouldn't that be triggering me into a horrible downward spiral, if I was suggesting this?

I got better. Some people are still in the process of getting better. I am asking for empathy and compassion for those people, if you have the capacity to recognize that they may need it. Otherwise, just do your best to be a decent human being.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#119

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 4:51 PM UTC

ticviking wrote: post #113

cheatsheet wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if people who have not experienced it (or learned how to recognize the pattern of subconscious association) will ever understand it. It sucks being sucked into your own black hole and I do not believe trauma victims walk into their own black holes willingly. It's a state of mind and it can be learned to be dealt with, but it requires strength. There are lots of people who live assuming they are in contro…

Speaking as a survivor myself. That is on me. I can't control my first reaction, the feelings of panic, being trapped and so on. I can however choose what I do once I feel those things. If I try to push responsibility for my safety onto others, or hold others accountable for MY psychological reactions is to insist that they participate in my treatment. It seems to be that if I need to draft my entire community in my…

[deleted]

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#120

Post by washadjeffmad » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 4:55 PM UTC

tunesmith wrote: post #18

littletimmy wrote: post #11

This is the end result of a culture that treats children like dainty chinadolls that are going to shatter at the first fracture. These kids are coddled since they are born to make sure they are "safe" and ferried endlessly from one constructive activity to another so they don't take any risk. Of course it will also be that they need "safe spaces" in college (basically extended high school) whenever they hear somethin…

I've always rolled my eyes at complaints about the "trophy generation" (Adam Carolla had a particularly brain-deadening rant about it), but this article honestly did get me wondering about how people like that would be able to cope with actual professional atmospheres after college. On the other hand, this article is an editorial that doesn't really try to quantify the problem, so maybe "people like that" aren't real…

They've been taught, whether or not they realize it, how to morally ransom others, guiltlessly. To ignore them is to marginalize them, to disagree with them is to threaten them, and to oppose them is assault. It's incredibly hypocritical and self-centered behavior, especially for an adult.

And what I fear is that they'll shape whatever environments that will allow it because everyone else has kowtowed to their feelings, and if you don't let them have their way, you'll become the toxic old guard who enables the victimizers-- quite a step away from "big, fat meanie head".

In a business environment, after making their way into a managerial role, it may mean over-promoting people who agree with them and reassigning those who don't. It might be some form of constant ostracism, like not getting invited along with everyone else to drinks after work, having negative rumors circulated about what a secret creep you are ("I heard they tried to pick up someone who was drunk." "I'd believe it, they don't think rape is real." "What a shitlord.", or not being put on jobs you're best at. And if you aren't having work that could make you look better withheld, you might have your career slowly poisoned by having things put in your file that indicate you're not a good candidate for promotion, which is all for the best, since you could be a closet oppressor who undoes a lifetime of progressive equality.

That's a bit hyperbolic, but those are all things that I've witnessed individually in varying degrees over the years, with different labels. It can be incredibly difficult to hold people to task for their actions, especially if they're not forthright in what they're doing and you're in the minority.

Perhaps it help to solve this problem if we included one more warning about life early on: "Safety is not guaranteed."