Coding Like a Girl • Hacker News Board

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#111

Post by hasenj » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 6:58 PM UTC

Honestly? It sounds like she's asking for conflict.

> It was then that I was 100% sure my dressing up wasn’t for him at all, I didn’t at all care if a partner disliked my dresses, or makeup. I was wearing them for me. And it was then, that I realized that continuing to wearing dresses just for myself was a totally valid way to say a big FUCK YOU to the patriarchy.

If I wore a suit to work just to appear/feel "elite" (i.e. of higher social status) about myself, I would totally not be surprised if my behavior is met with animosity from my fellow developers who mostly dress down or just dress casually.

> But she did and wore a nerdy tshirt and jeans instead, and she had a better experience that day. People assumed she was technical and didn’t dilute their explanations to her.

So it's not about being a female developer, it's about the image you're presenting of yourself.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#112

Post by mgkimsal » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 6:59 PM UTC

rfrey wrote: post #105

mgkimsal wrote: post #68

A few random thoughts... "Who are you here with?" might be indicating... what company are you here with? Are you with Google, or MS, or... whatever. "Who do you work for?" might be more appropriately direct. I have a pink macbook. I wear pink headphones. You wouldn't believe the number of weird/sexist comments I get from time to time. Or maybe you would. There was a piece floating around a couple weeks ago about wome…

I'm sure the asshat behaviour you describe affected you as much as any individual woman is affected by similar behaviour. I know (in the abstract sense) the people you're describing and they make me mad. That said, if the kind of behaviour you're describing affects women much more than men, can we still say there's sexism at work? Say I pull some statistics out of thin air: say 1 of 20 men get harassed like you descr…

How do you define "affects women more than men"? More women are affected by it? Women are affected by is disproportionately, as a percentage of their office population? Some other measure?

Ahhh - you're talking about proportionality.

I'm still not sure, but would need to see concrete examples. The particular article I'd read, the 'examples' were "I wasn't promoted", "I felt bullied" and "my ideas weren't taken seriously". How about we just root out that sort of workplace psychopathy altogether, vs trying to have it affect fewer women?

FWIW, when I've seen that sort of psychopathy in person, it's been rather indiscriminate. The only reason it might have affected more women disproportionately is that there were fewer women to affect in the first place. 50% of women being affected vs 10% of men affected is somewhat leading statistic, when you realize that there are only 8 women but 40 men - same number of people are affected.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#113

Post by shawndumas » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:03 PM UTC

andrewl wrote: post #72

Richard Hamming discusses clothing, presentation, and the cost of not conforming to expectations in You and Your Research .[1]. It's not exactly analogous to what's described in the article, but related: John Tukey almost always dressed very casually. He would go into an important office and it would take a long time before the other fellow realized that this is a first-class man and he had better listen.For a long t…

"You should dress according to the expectations of the audience spoken to. If I am going to give an address at the MIT computer center, I dress with a bolo and an old corduroy jacket or something else. I know enough not to let my clothes, my appearance, my manners get in the way of what I care about. An enormous number of scientists feel they must assert their ego and do their thing their way. They have got to be able to do this, that, or the other thing, and they pay a steady price.

John Tukey almost always dressed very casually. He would go into an important office and it would take a long time before the other fellow realized that this is a first-class man and he had better listen. For a long time John has had to overcome this kind of hostility. It's wasted effort! I didn't say you should conform; I said ``The appearance of conforming gets you a long way.'' If you chose to assert your ego in any number of ways, ``I am going to do it my way,'' you pay a small steady price throughout the whole of your professional career. And this, over a whole lifetime, adds up to an enormous amount of needless trouble."

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#114

Post by gaius » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:04 PM UTC

c22 wrote: post #107

logic404 wrote: post #100

A couple years ago she attended a technical conference and on the first day, she wore a dress...wore a nerdy t-shirt and jeans instead, and she had a better experience that day. People assumed she was technical and didn’t dilute their explanations to her I'm not sure this really makes the case that its sexism at play. For example, if a guy wore a suit and tie to a conference, people might assume he's not a programmer…

Yeah, I don't get it. She keeps saying she's "presenting" as feminine and then complaining that people are basing their assumptions on how she presents herself. If more programmers wear pretty dresses maybe that look will become stereotypical of programming, but it hasn't historically been the case. If I show up at a tech conference presenting as a wrestler I might be displaying all sorts of macho manly cues but I st…

Another example, if a black person came to a tech conference dressed in a suit and tie, then the next day in jeans and a hoodie, and were treated differently, I don't think anyone would think it was a sign that the tech scene is racist.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#115

Post by bhayden » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:04 PM UTC

spiffyman wrote: post #23

gaius wrote: post #6

The dress story vs jeans, would apply equally to a guy in a suit and tie vs a hoodie.

I don't think that's true. You might get disregarded as a "business guy" if you show up to a meetup in a suit. But it's just as likely that people will just assume you're in financials. One of the better Python speakers I know of shows up everywhere in a suit. But women consistently report not being taken seriously when wearing dresses.

I don't think a woman in a dress is analogous to a man in a suit.

Here is a woman in a dress, something she might wear to convention about programming if she wanted to wear a dress: http://dressforweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Korean-ver...

It's fairly modest and not loudly styled. This is not the same style of dress as a man wearing a suit. The equivalent for a woman would be this:

http://www.acrdepos.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/06...

or this, if you wanted a dress:

http://juegoskizi2.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/skirt-suit...

I do not thing most women would have an issue about assuming they aren't a programmer (any more than a man in a suit) wearing either of those two last things I linked.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#116

Post by stephenboyd » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:04 PM UTC

logic404 wrote: post #100

A couple years ago she attended a technical conference and on the first day, she wore a dress...wore a nerdy t-shirt and jeans instead, and she had a better experience that day. People assumed she was technical and didn’t dilute their explanations to her I'm not sure this really makes the case that its sexism at play. For example, if a guy wore a suit and tie to a conference, people might assume he's not a programmer…

The author is trying to correct the problem that people dressing in a feminine way are not seen as technical. If people who wear business suits have such a problem, they're welcome to do their own advocacy.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#117

Post by gaius » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:06 PM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #111

Honestly? It sounds like she's asking for conflict. > It was then that I was 100% sure my dressing up wasn’t for him at all, I didn’t at all care if a partner disliked my dresses, or makeup. I was wearing them for me. And it was then, that I realized that continuing to wearing dresses just for myself was a totally valid way to say a big FUCK YOU to the patriarchy. If I wore a suit to work just to appear/feel "elite"…

If a person is walking about thinking "fuck you" all the time then that's going to show in their facial expression, body language, tone of voice, general attitude... That's true regardless of gender. And over time its going to affect how others treat them.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#118

Post by pincubator » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:09 PM UTC

Reminds me when I was an instructor for a grad course and showed up in a very trendy outfit to the first lecture (nothing weird or revealing, but nothing you would often see in a campus either -- full make up, high heels, ripped jeans etc.) and I can't forget the look in the student's faces. I was trying to explain an algorithm on the board, and all students had a look in their faces like "you can't possibly know about this". When the class is over and the professor of the next class showed up, he had a grin on his face like "you can't possibly teach a class". Fast forward to 2 weeks later, when I was overwhelmed with the exams and didn't give a single damn anymore, I just showed up with my sweatpants, a hoodie, and no makeup. Students were listening the class with full focus and I was well respected. Not sure what to make out of this..

The funny thing is: I am programming since I was 17, and spent most of my youth in full-geeky and nerdy outfits (aka, in "programmer" style). But after I come to my mid-20s I started to feel like "Oh, I didn't even wear a dress or a high-heel in my entire life!!!11". That's when I started to dress like a woman, and that's what happens :')

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#119

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:09 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#120

Post by TACIXAT » Sat, Mar 07, 2015, 7:09 PM UTC

polarix wrote: post #46

Something is twisted in all these discussions of gender in tech, it really seems like we're just going around in circles over and over again. I've never read anything that felt like a particularly insightful explication of the cause here. Is it possible there's something more fundamental in society that this phenomenon is merely a symptom of, and that the fix is not going to be something like "just challenge yourself…

This is actually the first gender in tech article I've really liked. A lot of them off no solutions or advice, this one did. As for detecting and resisting unconscious bias, I've worked hard to lessen the anger I feel day to day and know it is possible to correct subconscious reactions.

Humans are awesome at categorizing information and making assumptions. I'm sure the ability to recognize patterns helped us to survive up to this point, but this skill isn't needed when having a conversation with someone. For the majority of us, our decisions are not life and death ones, we can take the time to disregard assumptions and learn specifics. I don't think it's the framework of our social interactions more so than it is just us. It's something we need to work actively to overcome.