Live data from Hacker News

Fired

zachholman.com

111–120 of 410 posts

Re: Fired

#111
post #41

There are people who were at OpenDNS in the early days who were incredible, and as we grew, became less and less incredible, largely because the things that made them incredible actually started to be really frustrating as the company grew and they didn't want to change those things. So they had to leave. Usually it was a series of conversations about how the person, their peers, and the company were all unhappy, and…

In his classic book Accidental Empires (http://www.amazon.com/Accidental-Empires-Silicon-Millions-Co...), Robert X. Cringely wrote that if you think of a market as an invasion beach you can think of three kinds of employees at tech companies: commandos, infantry, and police.

Commandos are people who love challenges and hate structure. They'll happily take on missions that other people think are crazy or impossible, because doing things other people think are crazy or impossible is what turns them on. They get you your critical early beachhead by swimming in at midnight with a knife in their teeth and slitting throats till morning.

Infantry are what most people are. Most people are not Rambo; crazy suicide missions don't turn them on. But at this point you have your foothold on the beach, so suicide missions are few; what you need now is lots of people to take that foothold and widen it into a big enough space to sustain yourself on indefinitely. This work is kind of a grind, so it doesn't appeal to the commandos, who start falling away looking for a new beach to storm. But it's critical for turning the company from a proof-of-concept into a real, going concern.

Eventually the fight for the beach ends, and the battle moves inland. But you still need to have some people there to maintain order, which is where the police come in. Police are even more risk-averse than infantry; they're caretakers who see their job less as expanding the market the commandos and infantry have won then as making sure it doesn't fall apart. Commandos and infantry fight to win; police fight to not lose.

All of these personality types are important at varying stages in a company's life, he writes, but the big challenge is making sure you have the right ones at the right stages, and that you manage the transitions between those stages well. A mostly-commandos startup that takes off but tries to still keep itself mostly commandos will choke on its own success. A larger company that still has growth opportunities but phases out its infantry in favor of police too early will miss those opportunities and get ground down by more aggressive competitors. A company that's grown as much as it can grow but resists bringing on police will run itself down launching futile new products that the market isn't asking for. Etc.

Re: Fired

#112
post #103
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But part of the problem is that in a meritocracy you need people to know who the bad actors are. It seems pretty obvious from outside Github that something has gone rotten in the company over the past couple of years, and the is the latest of the smells. Now any one of us could end up hiring that rotten apple from github in the future, if we don't know who it is. Of course you don't want to slander or libel people, b…

GitHub is very explicitly no longer a meritocracy: http://www.businessinsider.com/githubs-ceo-ditches-meritocra... And per https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9158997 the same Julie Ann Horvath was both his ex and wanted him fired.

Github has acknowledged that unconscious biases make it nearly impossible to have a true, pure meritocracy. It's a bit like communism - the ideal is wonderful, the actual implementation problematic.

Re: Fired

#113
post #84
post #44

Incompetent management is a plague on the industry. And the cause of it is that programmers are relatively low status. In so many businesses, there are "business guys" who end up managing the engineering staff-- at one level or another, but too often it's the direct manager role--and these business guys are incompetent at engineering. When you don't know whether a direct report is doing good or not because you don't…

The real tragedy is, learning business is not hard. Any programmer can do it. As a person who's switched back and forth between the technical person, the manager, and the business developer - I can tell you that all of the roles in the company take skill to do properly.

You're right, but it's no doubt much easier for an engineer to learn business and sales than for a business person to become good at programming and write production code daily.

Re: Fired

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally -- For what it's worth, people are fired all the time ( as I have been ) for all kinds of reasons, and so it's not a reason not to hire someone. Professional hiring managers know this. What terrifies me about being fired is: * I have a family to support, and even though we're well off enough to have a 6-12 month cushion, I've seen job markets where it takes longer than that you get hired * The number of unp…

> you can do everything right and still get fired And that's why much of the world has a social safety net.

Okay, you've made your point that America is backwards and doesn't look out for its workers. Nice one!

Do you have anything to say that might help people who happen to agree with you but are powerless to change it, and in need of income? Because while it really feels good to find things that confirm that your opinions are correct, being correct doesn't put food on the table and it doesn't help unemployed people find a job.

Re: Fired

#115

I have often said that companies rarely take it personally when you decide to leave them, so don't take it personally when they decide to leave you. Easy to say and hard to do, like a lot of things in life. Mostly it is the illusion of control, you don't have it, you only have choices you can make in the face of unfolding events. At Zach points out, companies change as they grow, they are some weird strange attractor…

I had a similar experience working with a company not quite as famous as Sun. The most important thing an engineer can do is recognize that "manager" and "person who influences/guides your career" are not the same thing at all. The best managers are usually good mentors, but conversely bad mentors are not necessarily bad managers.

[deleted]

Re: Fired

#116
post #67

You get these feelings even when you are not fired and going thru a bad period in your job etc. Loved that he is very articulated and honest, it makes for a nice piece to read and think again and again. I'm sure he will get nicer gigs in the futures and wish the best of luck. I just wonder - how do you get fired from a no-manager company ? A robot ? http://www.fastcolabs.com/3020181/open-company/inside-github...

In a no-manager organization, usually there is a "council" or "committee" and then there's everyone else. It may not be formally defined or have a name, but there always is one.

Nearly every company out there has some kind of separation and hierarchy of leadership, even if there are only 2 tiers total.

Re: Fired

#117
post #41

There are people who were at OpenDNS in the early days who were incredible, and as we grew, became less and less incredible, largely because the things that made them incredible actually started to be really frustrating as the company grew and they didn't want to change those things. So they had to leave. Usually it was a series of conversations about how the person, their peers, and the company were all unhappy, and…

> Finally -- For what it's worth, people are fired all the time ( as I have been ) for all kinds of reasons, and so it's not a reason not to hire someone. Professional hiring managers know this. What terrifies me about being fired is: * I have a family to support, and even though we're well off enough to have a 6-12 month cushion, I've seen job markets where it takes longer than that you get hired * The number of unp…

That is the one thing I really don't like about the whole fire fast mentality that is starting to pop up, particularly the extreme examples of "fire for any reason as soon as the person isn't a perfect fit, regardless of overall quality".

I'm fine with that, but make sure that I know it's likely coming well in advance. Make sure I understand that I'm not pulling my weight. Make sure I understand that the company is moving in a different direction and you'd rather part ways with me than let me retool. It's all good, just don't drop a bomb on me one day.

Re: Fired

#118

Why is this on the front page? Because he worked at GitHub? What was the point of this?

Because it's an interesting and well written article about a taboo theme.

Re: Fired

#119
post #96
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But part of the problem is that in a meritocracy you need people to know who the bad actors are. It seems pretty obvious from outside Github that something has gone rotten in the company over the past couple of years, and the is the latest of the smells. Now any one of us could end up hiring that rotten apple from github in the future, if we don't know who it is. Of course you don't want to slander or libel people, b…

It's pretty rare that someone really gets what's coming to them. This dude created some serious problems where I worked 15 years ago, and yet he still keeps getting hired: http://www.advogato.org/proj/DougNassaurWatch/ http://www.suncapinc.com/Doug_Nassaur.htm

This seems like a weird way to flog a 15 year old dispute.
Post reply on HN