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The drug revolution that no one can stop

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Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#111

Post by jessaustin »

paulhauggis wrote: post #71
jpatokal wrote: post #29

And these shenanigans, too, would be entirely unnecessary if known drugs were legal and regulated, and people could take controlled risks instead of playing Russian roulette with newly synthesized drugs.

Cigarette companies are still being sued to this day for causing cancer in users. There were public, social, campaigns saying that these companies were evil for knowing the effects of their product..yet still selling them to consumers that knew the risks (I'm taking in the last 20 years or so). The same thing is starting to happen to the fast-food companies like Mcdonalds. They are starting to take the blame for a pe…

We see big companies frequently taking part in tax avoidance by going overseas. Should we also blame the US government for having taxes that are too high?

Yes, the frequency of tax avoidance is proportional to tax rates.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#112

Post by zipfle »

jrapdx3 wrote: post #91
bigiain wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the unspoken "X has risks, and I don't want to do X, therefore X should be illegal". I ride motorcycles. I have friends and family involved in scuba diving, paragliding, football, rock climbing, hell - even horse riding. _All_ of those activities have "well known risks of serious injury or death" associated with them, and each of them I've heard recent stories of death in the extended circles of my famil…

I have one friend in his late 60's who just bought a new motorcycle. His wife was displeased with his decision though might be tempted to ride along sometimes. Another friend decided to stop riding a few years back because he felt it was too risky for him to continue. Point is with motorcycles, cars, scuba, yes, even horses, the risks are more or less known and probability of various outcomes, including harm, can be…

I think that where this falls apart is "laws and rules exist as a benchmark". That should be true, but the conduct of the US criminal justice system suggests it isn't.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#113

Post by yellowstuff »

paulhauggis wrote: post #71
jpatokal wrote: post #29

And these shenanigans, too, would be entirely unnecessary if known drugs were legal and regulated, and people could take controlled risks instead of playing Russian roulette with newly synthesized drugs.

Cigarette companies are still being sued to this day for causing cancer in users. There were public, social, campaigns saying that these companies were evil for knowing the effects of their product..yet still selling them to consumers that knew the risks (I'm taking in the last 20 years or so). The same thing is starting to happen to the fast-food companies like Mcdonalds. They are starting to take the blame for a pe…

> We see big companies frequently taking part in tax avoidance by going overseas. Should we also blame the US government for having taxes that are too high?

This is a common argument in finance and economics articles.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#114

Post by makomk »

Nursie wrote: post #99
syllogism wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how do you propose they buy them, when the legal highs are indistinguishable from them at a glance, and are cheaper and easier for dealers to buy?

I don't personally propose to buy them, but I do propose that society legalises and regulates several more drugs after cannabis, and that it legalises and regulates research into less harmful recreational substances.

Yeah, without drugs laws as an impetus, these new legal highs might never have been created in the first place and certainly wouldn't be mass-produced in the amounts they have been.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#115

Post by innguest »

MarkPNeyer wrote: post #101
frogpelt wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its hard for me to wrap my mind around this. Are you a person is willing to risk losing their intellect, health, usefulness to society and even their life but is afraid of the legal repercussions of that decision? That doesn't make sense to me.

You've never been extremely depressed, I take it? Most people pursuing altered stars of consciousness are deeply unhappy and don't feel like they are risking anything.

You shouldn't have been downvoted - your comment is pertinent.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#116

Post by MiddleEndian »

robert_tweed wrote: post #41
frozenport wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can sympathize with OP, sometime we just want the info without pictures of the Beatles.

Seriously, I'm considering writing an HN filtering proxy that ignores these kinds of magazine pieces. I just don't have time to read them properly, even if they are interesting enough that I inevitably get drawn into some of them. That's just another factor in HN becoming a time-sink instead of a productive source of useful news. I suspect if we had the ability to downvote submissions as well as upvote, less of them…

Just ignore anything from medium.com and you'll be right more often than not.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#117

Post by midnightreactor »

paulhauggis wrote: post #71
jpatokal wrote: post #29

And these shenanigans, too, would be entirely unnecessary if known drugs were legal and regulated, and people could take controlled risks instead of playing Russian roulette with newly synthesized drugs.

Cigarette companies are still being sued to this day for causing cancer in users. There were public, social, campaigns saying that these companies were evil for knowing the effects of their product..yet still selling them to consumers that knew the risks (I'm taking in the last 20 years or so). The same thing is starting to happen to the fast-food companies like Mcdonalds. They are starting to take the blame for a pe…

Your ideas regarding personal agency conflict in the post:

> Until we have a little more personal responsibility, I don't think illegal drugs should be legalized.

> It's your personal choice to play roulette with drugs.

The simple truth is that it is always a personal choice, whether it's legal or not. I accept that addiction would be a problem, but addiction is a mental/medical health problem, not a criminal issue. And it's totally fair to blame the government. Drug policy has allowed institutionalized racism to persist, even if not explicitly condoned from the higher echelons of command. Besides that, allowing these drugs to be legally used would allow companies to be made accountable for the health risks, the proceeds could be taxed by the government, and more than anything else, medical research could be performed on a number of these compounds as they hit the street.

In my mind, with how much young people these days talk about using molly/ecstasy, let alone research chemicals, testing kits should be more prevalent than condoms, but precaution is the kind of behavior that is stigmatized by overly judgmental people sitting in ivory towers like yourself.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#118

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

jpatokal wrote: post #29

And these shenanigans, too, would be entirely unnecessary if known drugs were legal and regulated, and people could take controlled risks instead of playing Russian roulette with newly synthesized drugs.

Some will always want to experiment, but I agree that legalization of the typical drugs would reduce this significantly.

Few are going to huff gasoline if cocaine is available on a liquor store shelf.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#119

Post by couchand »

jrapdx3 wrote: post #91
bigiain wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the unspoken "X has risks, and I don't want to do X, therefore X should be illegal". I ride motorcycles. I have friends and family involved in scuba diving, paragliding, football, rock climbing, hell - even horse riding. _All_ of those activities have "well known risks of serious injury or death" associated with them, and each of them I've heard recent stories of death in the extended circles of my famil…

I have one friend in his late 60's who just bought a new motorcycle. His wife was displeased with his decision though might be tempted to ride along sometimes. Another friend decided to stop riding a few years back because he felt it was too risky for him to continue. Point is with motorcycles, cars, scuba, yes, even horses, the risks are more or less known and probability of various outcomes, including harm, can be…

Point is with motorcycles, cars, scuba, yes, even horses, the risks are more or less known and probability of various outcomes, including harm, can be reasoned about.

Which is why we should legalize and regulate the drugs that we do understand. The risks of cannabis and LSD are also more or less known, and the (remarkably low) probability of harm (particularly compared with motorcycles, cars, etc) can be reasoned about.

The harm in making these well-understood substances criminal is far greater than the harm in regulating them. Indeed, as the GP points out, the harm in making the well-understood substances illegal is exacerbated by the harm from designer analogs.

As a clinician and scientist questions of prohibition are largely beside the point.

You're simply pulling the wool over your eyes if you believe that to be true. Prohibition is a causal factor in the danger of substance abuse.

Re: The drug revolution that no one can stop

#120

Post by philwelch »

krrrh wrote: post #88
philwelch wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that, if you're using it as an anti-nausea drug, you really don't want to take a pill that you're just going to throw up again! You want another method of intake. And it turns out that vaporization is not only better for cannabis but tobacco as well, hence the e-cigarette craze.

E-cigarettes vaporize nicotine, not tobacco.

Which is derived from tobacco, but ok. (Cannabis vaporizers tend to use hash oil.)
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