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Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

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Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#111

Post by JoshTriplett »

esaym wrote: post #70
esaym wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wondered whether people would sympathize with me or just flame me. I guess I can explain my 'imaginary' problems a bit. Like normal people, I had several random things thrown in rc.local(set drive power settings,disable blue tooth on laptops, set raid sync rates,ect). The first issue was, systemd never even executed this file. I had to go do random googling just to get it to execute. After that, it was hit o…

In the end, I have had to rewrite my init scripts for custom stuff and do extra work and I am left wondering why I even tried it in the first place. The only speed difference (which from what I can tell is the only reason anyone uses systemd) I have seen is on my desktop machine. Start up is way faster, and shut downs too. Although strangely shutdowns hang randomly for over a minute sometimes. But on my laptops, I ha…

> The only speed difference (which from what I can tell is the only reason anyone uses systemd)

Not even close. To the extent it improves performance, that's a nice side effect. For me, personally, it means a few lines of .service instead of a pile of init.d, service supervision when services unexpectedly exit, easy log integration to see what services are up to, and unified activation of services by a variety of means (socket, bus, path, dependency, etc).

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#112

Post by Slackwise »

cwyers wrote: post #109

Upon reflection, I don't think this is a systemd problem -- which is to say, many other distros (not even ones sponsored by Red Hat -- Arch, SuSE, Mageia, NixOS, etc.) have managed to switch to systemd as a default without this kind of a fuss. It's only Debian where this kind of a shitstorm has kicked off -- even Gentoo, which has been a rather vocal systemd holdout, offers systemd and doesn't seem to have this kind…

> even Gentoo, which has been a rather vocal systemd holdout, offers systemd and doesn't seem to have this kind of political infighting about it.

One of Gentoo's fundamental goals is to provide the users with as much choice as possible.

So far, they managed to get Systemd as an alternative to OpenRC. The major part of their issue with Systemd earlier was udev's dependency on Systemd, which made a lot of typical things messier. Once that got sorted, things are moving forward. Gentoo just wants to be a 'meta-distribution' so you can make your own customized system, and Systemd dependencies being added everywhere were detrimental to that effort.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#113

Post by bigiain »

jqm wrote: post #81
bigiain wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From tfheen on the Slashdot thread: "I don't agree with them (at least not fully), but my resignation from the maintainer team is not about people being skeptical, it's about personal attacks, it's about death wishes from project members and it's about people escalating conflicts instead of trying to resolve them." Seriously, people sending _death wishes_ to developer or maintainers of software who's decisions/direct…

While I respect your decision to throw out the CVs of people engaging in hatred and death wishes (of course... I think most people would do this), I'm not sure many of these people will be applying to your Australian web strategy company. In other words, your post came off as a bit self important.

Fair call.

I certainly didn't intend to imply I'm head of HR aT Google or SpaceX, but at he same time it wasn't intended to be about me (and turning it around that way the judging it based on 3 a year out of date HN bio or LinkedIn profile still doesn't make it about me).

How do you suggest that "we" (these people's peers) should deal with behavior like hat?

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#114

Post by asveikau »

CoachRufus87 wrote: post #91

A bit of background on his resignation: http://err.no/personal/blog/tech/Debian/2014-11-16-23-55_res...

> flares where people wish people involved in systemd would be run over by a bus or just accusations of incompetence.

Wow, these are really contrasting examples.

This HN thread is really focusing on the first category but I who haven't been following any of this actually had the impression that the 2nd category (incompetence) was right on the money regarding the recent bugs I've seen in my Debian installation.

I've used Debian since 2000 or so (slink was the first release I installed). I don't know if this problem is Debian or upstream. But ever since systemd became the default, my machine displays "Segmentation fault" at every boot, boots slower than before, and my previously working bluetooth pairings broke. Even when Debian was inserting extra memset()s into OpenSSL, I've never seen it this bad. It really doesn't feel like the system it used to be and I'm about to give up on it.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#116

Post by sandGorgon »

techdragon wrote: post #58
SwellJoe wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all of the valid criticisms of systemd, you've chosen an imaginary one. Systemd provides better process handling and failure reporting than the initscripts it replaces (and mostly better than upstart, as well).

Agreed. I maintain my stance as a critic of systemD but it's better than what we had before. I've very little to criticise it as an init system... My criticism falls more towards the issues of "why is this all in one process not task specific child processes launched by a core init process" and "why can't you make this work on BSD" and "why the f %*^# hell are you building kdbus... Please stop killing the kittens"

But why should someone writing for Linux think about OpenBSD? Are you saying every piece of BSD software runs on Linux? Go try telling Linus that you want a BSD compatible kernel.

Systemd does not run on BSD because of Cgroups and that is something the BSD maintainers don't want. Here's a small set of justifications why : systemd leverages core Linux infrastructure that has already diverged from OpenBSD

http://lwn.net/Articles/524920/

Having said that, there is work that the systems is sponsoring a project that implements systemd on OpenBSD

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc4MjQ

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#117

Post by SFjulie1 »

cwyers wrote: post #109

Upon reflection, I don't think this is a systemd problem -- which is to say, many other distros (not even ones sponsored by Red Hat -- Arch, SuSE, Mageia, NixOS, etc.) have managed to switch to systemd as a default without this kind of a fuss. It's only Debian where this kind of a shitstorm has kicked off -- even Gentoo, which has been a rather vocal systemd holdout, offers systemd and doesn't seem to have this kind…

debian is much more open source than companies.

The switch to systemd is made by authority, not competence.

The roadmap and the properties of systemd are totally awesome ... on the paper.

The problem in reality is that authority does not makes good engineering. Marketing neither. Systemd can be picked up for way too many reasons but imposing a poorly designed solution () by authority is hitting a nerve.

This move is looking like good old microsoft force feeding wrong technical solutions (thus costing expensive resources) to ALL free unices and a lot of projects for a wtf motivation that is clearly not the optimum technically.

You know how hard it is to make a software that works? Every resource spoiled on a stupid idea at the OS level is like a tax imposed on every single software that requires to be integrated in the system ... thus ALL projects.

Since some of them are impacted they voice their concern. And since debian is one of the most prominent linux that is clearly free software, that is where people voices their bug reports and sometimes also their concerns.

Btw look at the bugs in this mailing list, some are just non acceptable (why would you need dbus to login? What a sysadmin can thus do when dbus fails? For Zeus' sakes: WTF! 0_o)

go read the internet because I won't lose my time

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#118

Post by cbd1984 »

esaym wrote: post #15
Alupis wrote: post #7

It's time for this crap to stop. systemd haters have gone Too Far. Get over it. It's childish and pathetic now. Death threats to the creator. Personal attacks to volunteers. You have carried a debate into the extreme to where it is no longer noble. Just leave. Just stop. You are not welcome anymore in the community.

Wish I could get over it. But every time some random process fails to start at boot time I...well I cry a little knowing this is what we are now stuck with.

If systemd is that bad, where is The Distro Without systemd?

You know, the Linux distro that sets itself apart from the rest by Not Having systemd. Just... not having it. Going with SysV init or BSD init or Something Which Is Not systemd.

Because I don't see one, which implies it isn't that bad.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#119

Post by cbd1984 »

uselessdguy wrote: post #72
Stratoscope wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. It starts right from the top, just like the similar situation in the Rails community. When your founder and leader behaves a certain way, it gives everyone in the community license to act like that. Edit: I seem to have touched a nerve here. My apology to anyone my comment offended. Nonetheless, I stand by the idea th…

But then by this logic, OpenBSD should also be a dysfunctional mess. It's not. It has almost the same number of contributors per 6-month release cycle that systemd alone gets in only about 3 months, yet it is a remarkably productive project. No, I do not think Linus is at fault here. I think a more likely explanation is that (GNU/)Linux is the go to alternative operating system, and it gets a lot of cocky newbies who…

I don't know, BSD seems to attract a lot of people who seem self-congratulatory that they're not using Linux, just like how MacOS has been the Anti-Windows since circa 1995.

My theory is that it's straight-up due to how many people use Linux compared to other non-Windows OSes and the fact the average people have more say (or think they do) compared to The One Apple Way. Any large group will have assholes, and the number of assholes is a simple percentage of the total.

Re: Resignation from the pkg-systemd maintainer team

#120

Post by cbd1984 »

superuser2 wrote: post #35
dsl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does his gender matter?

Cops' lives (in a particularly uncharitable interpretation) revolve around reinforcing their own masculinity by winning fights and exerting dominance. Using that to protect damsels in distress from creepy male others/sexual predators is a highly masculinity-reinforcing, fatherly/brotherly and desirable thing to do. An effiminate man (using the again uncharitable notion that nerds with desk jobs are not manly in the e…

I love how this explanation is fully feminist right up to the point it utterly ignores the existence of female police officers.
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