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Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

therotationship.com

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Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll reiterate OP and say that these seem low to me as well...and dare I say that I still think Software Developers are underpaid?! These employees are bringing in billions of dollars for these companies and for them to still receive Think about this. You get into work at 8am and you leave work at 8pm. You manage a team of engineers that are literally building the foundation for the future of the company. Your entire…

> You get into work at 8am and you leave work at 8pm To be comparable, a salary number should reflect a full time work week, and be for a position which TWO people can hold, full time, while still having time to pick up kids. Obviously if I worked 12h days I'd be supporting my partner who could NOT have the same full time job. Not sure what these figures represent, I thought they were regular day-jobs, which you coul…

> It's no more appalling than fast food workers being paid peanuts in fast food chains that make a billion.

What are the numbers per employee?

Net income per employee:

Apple: $456,800

McDonald's: $12,530

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=profit+per+employee+app...

Revenue per employee:

Apple: $2,111,000

McDonald's: $64,320

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=revenue+per+employee+ap...

Apple has about 3x what it pays out in salaries left over after paying everyone, McDonald's only has about 1x salary per employee profit. McDonald's would go broke if it doubled everyone's salaries, Apple could afford to do that and still be hugely profitable.

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#112
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's low to you? Wow. Just wow. Over here in Europe (or at least Germany) salaries are incredibly uniform (doesn't really matter if you suck or get as much done in a day as others in 1-2 weeks; if your bugs get constantly reopened or your code is rock-solid), and most people seem to get maybe 35-50k€ after graduation (diploma/master's degree).

Hey ah guys. Most devs in HK earn < 30k USD a year. China is half that, Taiwan is even worse. When you factor in how freaking expensive everything is in HK, especially real estate, HK devs in general are basically slave labors.

I'm not sure where you get your numbers but having managed an office in Shanghai I can tell you that is not accurate. These numbers are all translated to USD. Entry level devs were in the 18-20K range. Mid to senior devs were in the 30-35K range and a Director was in the 50-60K range. We had our entry level and mid-range devs hired away for 20% more by eBay or other larger US companies from those numbers. However, in Shanghai, that means your devs are usually commuting for an hour via public transit from the outer ring because you can't actually live in Pudong or Puxi for that kind of money unless your family has been living there already for a long time. And none of our devs were in that position since they were pretty much all from different parts of the country.

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that odd. The jobs you mentioned (finance, sales, insurance, legal, upper management), with the exception being upper management, will most likely net you less than what a developer makes here in the U.S. I should mention that those salaries are much more variable than developer salaries. It's not uncommon to find an insurance salesmen make less than $50k per year, but it also wouldn't be uncommon to find one…

In Germany, all those jobs you mention will also make more/much more than a developer. I think the tech sector in the US is very strong and competes for devs.

I think I understand this. In both the US and in Germany, a lot of developers -- kids right out of college -- will work for a lot less than the value they add. Too young to know better; nerdy and bad at negotiation.

OK, the difference between Germany and the US is that job creation is easier in the US -- less regulations on employers. One piece of evidence that this is so is the high youth unemployment in Europe compared to the US. Once all the developers willing to work for less than they could get have been hired. The employers in the US (at least during go-go times like now) are still motivated to hire additional developers -- because the US economy is good at utilizing all the development talent it can get. It is still profitable (just not quite so much) to hire a developer who demands the be paid comensurate to the value they add to the employer.

So, in the US, people who are good at negotiation and know they're good can hold out for higher salaries -- and still get hired -- at least until there is a slowdown.

There is my theory: German dev jobs are filled by workers who are bad at negotiation (like many many nerds are) or they do not have enough work experience to realize what they are worth. German employers probably do not have the capacity to employ everyone willing to work as a dev.

In contrast, in the US, a lot of devs are also paid less than they are worth -- because people, i.e., young nerdy men are basically the same wherever you go -- but there are also devs whose attitude is, well, I'd be happy to work for you if you pay me $200,000 a year. If you cannot meet my salary requirements, well, there's other productive things I could be doing with my time or maybe I'll travel and live off savings for a few years -- or maybe I'll keep on job hunting.

US employers would prefer to hire from the first group, but eventually all the qualified devs in that group have been hired. US employers are willing to hire from the second group -- since their labor can still be converted into more income than required to pay the dev the high salary -- making it profitable to do so.

If my theory is correct, the way to get a high salary in the US is to have the option of refusing to work -- i.e., no immediate need for money (or to please one's parent by getting a prestigious job). That's the way negotiation works: if my best alternative to a negotiated agreement (BATNA) is pretty good, then my negotiating position is pretty good.

This is basic microeconomics, and it works even if many devs are willing to work for much less than the value they create. There is no need for us to convince those devs to get better at negotiation. Or unionize of anything like that. That all changes, though, when not every dev who needs a job can find a job. (Which is an argument for taking a pay cut during economic downturns, I guess.)

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#114
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the US we basically have little or no social safety net, and certainly few meaningful regulations and laws protecting labor. Our "wow just wow" salaries have less buying power than yours, because any difference in the margins is eaten up by having to use the additional salary for basic services you would be able to (mostly) take for granted as being government supplied (via taxation and other means).

Little to no safety net? What are we spending 50% of the federal budget on then?

1. Social Security 24% 2. Military spending 19%: over 900 bases in 130 countries

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's low to you? Wow. Just wow. Over here in Europe (or at least Germany) salaries are incredibly uniform (doesn't really matter if you suck or get as much done in a day as others in 1-2 weeks; if your bugs get constantly reopened or your code is rock-solid), and most people seem to get maybe 35-50k€ after graduation (diploma/master's degree).

You might want to consider Ireland or the UK if your spoken English is as good as your written English. Salaries aren't quite bay area, but they're better than what you describe, especially for a master's!. With 20 days of vacation a year and people who don't take it for granted you'll spend all weekend working I have no intention to return to the US.

Ireland has nightmarish 52% tax! For tech salaries this number hits pretty early.

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's low to you? Wow. Just wow. Over here in Europe (or at least Germany) salaries are incredibly uniform (doesn't really matter if you suck or get as much done in a day as others in 1-2 weeks; if your bugs get constantly reopened or your code is rock-solid), and most people seem to get maybe 35-50k€ after graduation (diploma/master's degree).

You might want to consider Ireland or the UK if your spoken English is as good as your written English. Salaries aren't quite bay area, but they're better than what you describe, especially for a master's!. With 20 days of vacation a year and people who don't take it for granted you'll spend all weekend working I have no intention to return to the US.

Just one question: How is the weather? :-)

That said, I've been to Ireland lots of times for vacation. (I should go check the job sites.)

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You get into work at 8am and you leave work at 8pm To be comparable, a salary number should reflect a full time work week, and be for a position which TWO people can hold, full time, while still having time to pick up kids. Obviously if I worked 12h days I'd be supporting my partner who could NOT have the same full time job. Not sure what these figures represent, I thought they were regular day-jobs, which you coul…

> It's no more appalling than fast food workers being paid peanuts in fast food chains that make a billion. What are the numbers per employee ? Net income per employee: Apple: $456,800 McDonald's: $12,530 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=profit+per+employee+app... Revenue per employee: Apple: $2,111,000 McDonald's: $64,320 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=revenue+per+employee+ap... Apple has about 3x what it…

Point taken, I'm sure there are better examples than fast food of companies paying peanuts but earning millions per employee, probably due to huge investments/risks involved. Natural resources and banks come to mind.

Still, there is nothing that should make Apple pay more because they can, they only need to be competitive in salaries, not excessive. If they wanted to compensate employees more, that would probably not show up in these figures as it would likely not be base salary but rather bonuses/stock etc.

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and I realize good developers are hard to find, but unless you are looking for the 23year old "ninja" type developers who like doing all nighters, would you not need to care about work/life balance of employees too? Startups that need to launch yesterday I realize often have young employees without family, but these are large corps like Oracle/Yahoo/Google, these have to employ quite a lot of engineers in their…

It's not part of the culture. People sometimes quietly grouse about the lack of vacation time or the number of hours but no one is willing to publicly do anything about it for whatever cultural reason.

So in this culture, is it common to do a few years of high-income work with 12hr days and high compensation, and then you get a "quieter" job somewhere else when you need a job that allows you to pick the kids up at 4.30pm? Or how does it work? Obviously children aren't unheard of in Silicon Valley, and as far as I understand it's a pretty progressive part of the US, so I assume that families have two careers to worry about? Something doesn't add up if long days are norm.

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's no more appalling than fast food workers being paid peanuts in fast food chains that make a billion. What are the numbers per employee ? Net income per employee: Apple: $456,800 McDonald's: $12,530 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=profit+per+employee+app... Revenue per employee: Apple: $2,111,000 McDonald's: $64,320 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=revenue+per+employee+ap... Apple has about 3x what it…

Point taken, I'm sure there are better examples than fast food of companies paying peanuts but earning millions per employee, probably due to huge investments/risks involved. Natural resources and banks come to mind. Still, there is nothing that should make Apple pay more because they can, they only need to be competitive in salaries, not excessive. If they wanted to compensate employees more, that would probably not…

> Still, there is nothing that should make Apple pay more because they can

No, but to hear people complain about how it's impossible to hire anyone...

while inflation- and cost-of-living-adjusted salaries actually have not increased at all... what's going on here?

Re: Tech salary insights from 1.2M foreign worker visas

#120
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's low to you? Wow. Just wow. Over here in Europe (or at least Germany) salaries are incredibly uniform (doesn't really matter if you suck or get as much done in a day as others in 1-2 weeks; if your bugs get constantly reopened or your code is rock-solid), and most people seem to get maybe 35-50k€ after graduation (diploma/master's degree).

Bear in mind that the US is severely out of whack in terms of work/life balance. It's one of the things I find most difficult about living here - when I first arrived I had 10 days vacation a year. I currently only have 15. And don't forget to factor in healthcare costs and the like. Money certainly isn't everything.

Does it means, that you can't get unpaid vacation days too?

If you can get additional unpaid 15 days leave, then it's just 6% less salary per year.

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