Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Startup CEOs who gave up fortunes to turn employees into millionaires

businessinsider.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 142 posts

Re: Startup CEOs who gave up fortunes to turn employees into millionaires

#111

Post by eeeeeeeeeeeee »

soperj wrote: post #44
Arjuna wrote: post #38

Although Woz wasn't a CEO... for those that don't know about this, I thought you would find it interesting [1]: "And when Jobs (in the movie, but really a board does this) denied stock to the early garage team (some not even shown) I'm surprised that they chose not to show me giving about $10M of my own stock to them because it was the right thing. And $10M was a lot in that time." [1] Woz's entire post is on this pa…

I truly hope that Woz is remembered as the guy behind Apple's early greatness and Jobs as just a dickhead who set us all back. Not just developers with his no compete bullshit, but everyone with his stupid no ports aesthetic. How are people supposed to learn to tinker when everything is locked down??

Are you joking? Look at the developer community in OS X and iOS that are constantly tinkering and learning.

Jobs was absolutely an asshole, but to say he "set us all back" is preposterous.

Re: Startup CEOs who gave up fortunes to turn employees into millionaires

#112

Post by deskamess »

x0x0 wrote: post #17
JimboOmega wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the going rate $250-$300k these days? Honestly, though - beyond just larger equity grants, I'd like to see companies have people get rewarded when the company does well... Through some kind of bonus (in equity or cash). It seems like most companies either have bonuses that are pretty much an expected part of salary, or they have no bonus in any situation. I've only really been part of the latter, though.

For a highly experienced senior engineers capable of largely independent delivery of projects with roughly 8-10 years of experience on a platform, very deep understanding of at least one language with a bunch of experience in one or two more, etc etc seem to be getting about that much including grants at the big companies, particularly after being there perhaps 3 years and getting grants annually.

What is a grant? Familiar with the term in an academic setting, but not that much in a work setting.

Re: Startup CEOs who gave up fortunes to turn employees into millionaires

#113

Post by methehack »

timr wrote: post #79
wuliwong wrote: post #57

When I joined a startup a couple years ago as a very early employee. The equity they offered was some tiny percentage, like 0.1%. I did the math and said, "you know, we would need to exit for a billion dollars for me to receive a million?" The founder seemed surprised at that. Nevertheless, I joined the startup. What I don't understand is if the company does sell, and I only get my 0.1%, I should be upset or call the…

"you know, we would need to exit for a billion dollars for me to receive a million?" It's worse than that. By the time you factor in preferred shares and other investment dilution, your 0.1% will be more like 0.00001%[+]. Few people think about that, and unless someone is actively looking out for your interests (e.g. someone giving retention grants -- or you demanding them), it's difficult to make a lot of money as a…

I agree with timr here. You guys are missing the point. It's not math. It's trust.

There's no way to predict the outcomes. Options are little more than signals of intention. At point of exit, everything is in the air and you are not part of the negotiation. What's it worth? Do you have to move? Do you report the Chief VP of Total and Complete Meanness?

You get paid because someone is looking out for you.

The way to evaluate the deal you're getting from a founder is to ask yourself whether they would pay you out of their own pockets. There will be a moment when, in effect, they make that choice. The good ones won't be able to enjoy the money unless their team shares in the wealth. The bad ones will cobble together a rationalization about risk or how smart or deserving they are. You don't assess the offer, you assess the people. I know because I'm not very good at assessing the people ;)

Re: Startup CEOs who gave up fortunes to turn employees into millionaires

#114

Post by JoshTriplett »

dragonglass wrote: post #59
jacquesm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have some first hand proof that google pays not-all-that-senior engineers that kind of money and more. So if you're good then you may consider moving to one of the bigger players for a substantial increase in pay.

I can confirm this as well. I'm about 1 year out of college and just got a Google offer (salary + bonus + stock) that averages ~$240k per year.

How much of that was the base pay? I received a Google offer as well a couple of years ago, with a very concrete salary and a very handwavy "and there are bonuses and stock". Did your offer actually spell out how much the bonuses and stock were worth, or did you only find that out once you accepted the offer?

Re: Startup CEOs who gave up fortunes to turn employees into millionaires

#115

Post by vinceguidry »

deskamess wrote: post #112
x0x0 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a highly experienced senior engineers capable of largely independent delivery of projects with roughly 8-10 years of experience on a platform, very deep understanding of at least one language with a bunch of experience in one or two more, etc etc seem to be getting about that much including grants at the big companies, particularly after being there perhaps 3 years and getting grants annually.

What is a grant? Familiar with the term in an academic setting, but not that much in a work setting.

http://fairmark.com/execcomp/grants.htm

Re: Startup CEOs who gave up fortunes to turn employees into millionaires

#116

Post by bobbles »

soperj wrote: post #44
Arjuna wrote: post #38

Although Woz wasn't a CEO... for those that don't know about this, I thought you would find it interesting [1]: "And when Jobs (in the movie, but really a board does this) denied stock to the early garage team (some not even shown) I'm surprised that they chose not to show me giving about $10M of my own stock to them because it was the right thing. And $10M was a lot in that time." [1] Woz's entire post is on this pa…

I truly hope that Woz is remembered as the guy behind Apple's early greatness and Jobs as just a dickhead who set us all back. Not just developers with his no compete bullshit, but everyone with his stupid no ports aesthetic. How are people supposed to learn to tinker when everything is locked down??

If Jobs wasn't there you never would have ever heard of Apple. Keep that in mind

Re: Startup CEOs who gave up fortunes to turn employees into millionaires

#117

Post by throwaway7808 »

nilkn wrote: post #56
throwaway7808 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Risk of employees is actually a lot higher than that of a founder. Founders have access to crucial financial information, employees do not. Thus higher risk. Founders have all the control, employees do not. Thus higher risk. Founders can make almost arbitrary hiring/firing decisions that can affect a future (!) career of an employee. Last, but not least, employees may need a reference from their former bosses, founde…

You forgot the obvious detail that the founder also stands to make far, far more money from an acquisition than most employees, but (if it's VC funded and not bootstrapped) is mostly insulated from any sort of real catastrophe if it fails.

Yes, and that's the reward part of the risk/reward equation.

I'm actually not concerned at all about the rewards, 'unfairness' or any other philosophical issues. What I don't like is that there's a myth "the founders bear most of the risk", while in fact, for VC-financed startups the opposite is probably true "the VCs and employees bear most of the risk."

Re: Startup CEOs who gave up fortunes to turn employees into millionaires

#118

Post by throwaway7808 »

curun1r wrote: post #65
vladimirralev wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by founders bear most of the risk and responsibility? Most founders are not personally liable and haven't put significant amount of their own money in the company. At most they get some rough talk from the investors/customers, just like an under-performing employee would. They just stand to lose some of their time that could have been spent in more profitable employment.

> They just stand to lose some of their time that could have been spent in more profitable employment. That's exactly what employees have to lose too. The way that I've always looked at it is that any employee, founder or not, should be entitled to current-valuation equity that's equal to the difference between their market rate and what they get paid by the startup. Founders are frequently unpaid or poorly-paid at a…

> should be entitled to current-valuation equity that's equal to the difference between their market rate and what they get paid by the startup

Rrright. Only a founder can decide to dilute the stock while keeping that quiet, or do any number of other things. While an employee is on the receiving end.

Re: Startup CEOs who gave up fortunes to turn employees into millionaires

#119

Post by throwaway7808 »

methehack wrote: post #113
timr wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"you know, we would need to exit for a billion dollars for me to receive a million?" It's worse than that. By the time you factor in preferred shares and other investment dilution, your 0.1% will be more like 0.00001%[+]. Few people think about that, and unless someone is actively looking out for your interests (e.g. someone giving retention grants -- or you demanding them), it's difficult to make a lot of money as a…

I agree with timr here. You guys are missing the point. It's not math. It's trust. There's no way to predict the outcomes. Options are little more than signals of intention. At point of exit, everything is in the air and you are not part of the negotiation. What's it worth? Do you have to move? Do you report the Chief VP of Total and Complete Meanness? You get paid because someone is looking out for you. The way to e…

Hey, do you want to join a cool startup that I'm working on? I'll look out for you, no worries. Just work and have fun, and I'll take care of the rest.

By the way, there's also an investment opportunity, you see I've recently came into ownership of a certain bridge....

Re: Startup CEOs who gave up fortunes to turn employees into millionaires

#120

Post by jfb »

deskamess wrote: post #112
x0x0 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a highly experienced senior engineers capable of largely independent delivery of projects with roughly 8-10 years of experience on a platform, very deep understanding of at least one language with a bunch of experience in one or two more, etc etc seem to be getting about that much including grants at the big companies, particularly after being there perhaps 3 years and getting grants annually.

What is a grant? Familiar with the term in an academic setting, but not that much in a work setting.

In this context, it's a chunk of equity.
Post reply on HN