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Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

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Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#111

Post by astrodust »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #106
mpthrapp wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, why would we ever legalize physically addictive drugs like cigarettes or alcohol? Oh wait. I'm not saying anything about the legalization of Heroin, just that the potential for physical addiction maybe isn't the best marker for legalization.

I'm all for making nicotine illegal. Alcohol isn't physically addictive like heroin. >just that the potential for physical addiction maybe isn't the best marker for legalization. Probably better than the current standards. I'd love to live somewhere where cigarettes were illegal and pot wasn't.

You can die from an alcohol dependency if you're not treated properly when going sober. For about 10% of the population that is pre-disposed to alcoholism it is extremely addictive.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#113

Post by mpthrapp »

mikeash wrote: post #107
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities Right. I mean, a hippy-esque musical festival is going to draw in all sorts of non-violent potheads. How about the south side of Chicago? Do you think Kosmic Care is going to handle gangbangers on meth? Heck, here in Chicago during Lollapalooza, a man bit two people and injured them. It is reported that…

How does making the stuff illegal handle gangbangers on meth, exactly? The anti-legalization crowd seems to hold it as an article of faith that criminalizing drug use results in less drug use. The arguments always come down to some variation on, "Freedom is good, but drugs are bad, so sometimes it's worth making them illegal." I think you need to show that criminalizing physically addictive drugs like heroin, PCP, me…

C'mon, don't know you know that making something illegal automatically makes everyone in the world stop doing it? /s

No, but seriously - and I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir - we desperately need reforms in both the Mental Health and Drug sectors in the US. Vermont's initiative seems to be a step in the right direction. It reminds me a bit of the Canadian Insite[1], which is a place where addicts can go to be in a sterile environment and be under medical supervision while they use.

[1]http://supervisedinjection.vch.ca/

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#114

Post by true_religion »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #103
josefresco wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities. I'm welcome your anecdotal evidence but don't find it at all relevant to the topic of how a state should handle the legal and health consequences of heroin abuse. A bunch of party-goers doing recreational drugs couldn't be farther from the realities of heroin addiction in a rural population.

>Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities Right. I mean, a hippy-esque musical festival is going to draw in all sorts of non-violent potheads. How about the south side of Chicago? Do you think Kosmic Care is going to handle gangbangers on meth? Heck, here in Chicago during Lollapalooza, a man bit two people and injured them. It is reported that…

> Heck, here in Chicago during Lollapalooza, a man bit two people and injured them. It is reported that he was on drugs:

If you attack people, it doesn't matter how drug friendly your country is... you'll still be arrested just the same as if you attacked someone while sober.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#115

Post by mpthrapp »

true_religion wrote: post #114
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities Right. I mean, a hippy-esque musical festival is going to draw in all sorts of non-violent potheads. How about the south side of Chicago? Do you think Kosmic Care is going to handle gangbangers on meth? Heck, here in Chicago during Lollapalooza, a man bit two people and injured them. It is reported that…

> Heck, here in Chicago during Lollapalooza, a man bit two people and injured them. It is reported that he was on drugs: If you attack people, it doesn't matter how drug friendly your country is... you'll still be arrested just the same as if you attacked someone while sober.

Yup. Just because a substance is legal, doesn't mean using it absolves you of responsibility for your actions while using it. Look at alcohol.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#116

Post by thisjepisje »

coldtea wrote: post #93
Xylakant wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh sure, this is about moderate drinkers, not about people abusing alcohol as a drug. The side effects of moderate use of pretty much every controlled substance are pretty much insignificant as long as you use a pure, unadultered drug (let's forget about croc or battery acid etc). But once you get into heavy use, alcohol starts looking pretty bad: destroys liver and brain among other things, compared to e.g. opium wh…

> But once you get into heavy use, alcohol starts looking pretty bad Well, you can die with heavy dose of water too. Actually not even that heavy, people have died drinking like 7-10 liters. > The side effects of moderate use of pretty much every controlled substance are pretty much insignificant Yeah, but the research shows moderate use of alcohol not only doesn't have bad effects (even if insignificant) but it even…

How many people do you know that use excessive amounts of water recreationally, or are addicted to litres and litres of water?

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#117

Post by danielbln »

coldtea wrote: post #93
Xylakant wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh sure, this is about moderate drinkers, not about people abusing alcohol as a drug. The side effects of moderate use of pretty much every controlled substance are pretty much insignificant as long as you use a pure, unadultered drug (let's forget about croc or battery acid etc). But once you get into heavy use, alcohol starts looking pretty bad: destroys liver and brain among other things, compared to e.g. opium wh…

> But once you get into heavy use, alcohol starts looking pretty bad Well, you can die with heavy dose of water too. Actually not even that heavy, people have died drinking like 7-10 liters. > The side effects of moderate use of pretty much every controlled substance are pretty much insignificant Yeah, but the research shows moderate use of alcohol not only doesn't have bad effects (even if insignificant) but it even…

> Yeah, but the research shows moderate use of alcohol not only doesn't have bad effects (even if insignificant) but it even has significant (measurable) beneficial effects.

Citation? Also, what's 'moderate' use for you? A 'standard drink' equals about 10 grams alcohol, the German institute for addiction (DHS) says* that the threshold dose for risk free consumption is at 20 grams per day, with two days break per week. Above you are risking a plethora of health risks, from mouth cancer, to liver deseases, breast cancer and what have you. There are some benficial health effects, but none of them are 'significant'.

*http://www.dhs.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/dhs_stellungnahm...

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#118

Post by Noted »

mpthrapp wrote: post #115
true_religion wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Heck, here in Chicago during Lollapalooza, a man bit two people and injured them. It is reported that he was on drugs: If you attack people, it doesn't matter how drug friendly your country is... you'll still be arrested just the same as if you attacked someone while sober.

Yup. Just because a substance is legal, doesn't mean using it absolves you of responsibility for your actions while using it. Look at alcohol.

I think the point was the few lines after that about the punishment the attacker withstood, presumably due to the drugs. Subduing someone on PCP can be much more difficult than someone who is drunk or high from other substances

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#119

Post by bashinator »

calibraxis wrote: post #29
thrownaway2424 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's about the stupidest thing I've heard in a while, so stupid I have to assume it's sarcasm. Of course the great state experiment is how we got here in the first place. Reagan, as governor, defunded mental health care and just said fuckit, throw all the addicts in prison. Then he took his ideas "to prod" by doubling down on Nixon's "war", with the helpful (to his party) side-effect of throwing millions of black p…

As personally attacking as this post is (though the anger is perfectly understandable), it's probably closest to my view, mentioning "the helpful (to his party) side-effect of throwing millions of black people in prisons." Except I don't consider it a side-effect, nor do I think it's limited to Republicans. For example, prison was one way to control the newly freed slave population. ( http://www.chomsky.info/intervie…

I find it very telling that prisoners are specifically excepted from the 13th Amendment of the US Constitution.

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#120

Post by awildone »

growler wrote: post #94
awildone wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it get's worse. Because your not really tripping but rather fighting poisoning, it effectively cuts the connection to the better part of who you are. If it wasn't for alcohol, a lot of the trouble we see in society simply wouldn't exist.

I think there are a few examples of tripping being the result of poisoning. Mushrooms, various cacti... The reason mescalin makes you puke is not because it does a body good.

Some would say the puke part is part of the cleansing, more spiritual than physical. Comparing shrooms to alcohol is very unfair. One is a spiritual plant, one is poison.
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