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I Can’t Afford a Bachelor’s Degree, So I’m Making My Own

blog.alyxandria.org

111–120 of 145 posts

Re: I Can’t Afford a Bachelor’s Degree, So I’m Making My Own

#111
post #61

1. Apprentice in a good trade and you can earn more than the average professor. Seriously, my plumber makes more than than the prof who taught me quantum physics. 2. If you're at all cut out for college, you can get scholarships. 3. Even if you're not brilliant and just persistent, you can get loans. University administrators and their associated bureaucracy have been expanding for quite some time now. It's actually…

In addition to scholarships, which are merit based, many schools also have good financial aid, which is need based. I think colleges advertise this poorly but it makes a huge difference. I am at Boston University now and while the sticker price is $55k/year the average american student pays about half of that. When my wife went to Princeton they used the FASA form to to calculate how much your family could afford and…

> I think colleges advertise this poorly but it makes a huge difference.

Many colleges do not have the endowments of the Ivy League, therefore, need-based financial aid awards are essentially non-existent for people who are simultaneously too rich for aid and too poor to pay outright.

For instance, in my application to Babson College in 2007, I was outright denied all financial aid because my parents (combined) made $90,000 and had a modest retirement portfolio in the $200k range. At the time, tuition was about $50k/year. Without them utterly sacrificing their entire nest-egg or moving out of their own house, paying for school on their own was entirely out of the question. Thus, I ended up going to the private loan market and got a decent rate for a $50k student loan. Thank God I was only there for a year, I cannot imagine having to service a debt of ~$1,500/month for the next 20 years.

Re: I Can’t Afford a Bachelor’s Degree, So I’m Making My Own

#112
post #72
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make some good points, but many of your objections are shallow. > It starts with colleges should be more than job training centers, then ends with trying to create an accreditation process to prove value to external entities (of which I assume employers are a big part?). It is absolutely consistent to realize that a degree is not about job training, but should probably produce employable graduates. Ensuring the q…

He does have some critique of the institutions which have received accreditation: ...even though some terrible schools and programs are accredited by the respected accrediting agencies... There are different levels of approval and accreditation in the US, and as a layperson the distinction might be unclear. Due to this lack of transparency means some agencies might be seen to be doing a better job that others. My exp…

Thanks for the reflection based on your experience. fwiw I spent some time on Oplerno today. Your model (start with credit, then figure out accreditation through existing reputable boards) makes a lot more sense.

> ...and as a layperson the distinction might be unclear.

This is really the problem I understand he's trying to solve. As long as there exists meaningless accreditation and general confusion among laypeople, non-traditional models face an uphill battle.

So it's not that accreditation agencies in general are awful. It's just at accreditation doesn't mean much to people who aren't insiders. Which is just as a bad, from a student's perspective and from the perspective of non-traditional institutions.

Offering an accreditation aimed at admittedly non-traditional degree programs where the accreditation really means something seems helpful. But perhaps this is better solved by going through one of the existing high-quality accreditation agencies and then explicitly pointing out the quality of your accreditation.

Re: I Can’t Afford a Bachelor’s Degree, So I’m Making My Own

#113
The site mentioned in the article (alyxandria.org) is flagged by my company's filter/proxy (IronPort) as being a potential malware site because "IP address is either verified as a bot or has misconfigured DNS." Perhaps this accreditation organization should check its DNS records?

Re: I Can’t Afford a Bachelor’s Degree, So I’m Making My Own

#114

This blog post seems like a jumble of ideas that are neither consistent or connected. It starts with colleges should be more than job training centers, then ends with trying to create an accreditation process to prove value to external entities (of which I assume employers are a big part?). It mentions the high cost of education, then describes how his current options are lacking because the number of classes in each…

Considering that it is their first degree, I made the possible inaccurate assumption that this person was just getting out of the US equivalent of high school. My thoughts at that age were pretty jumbled too. Many of my peers didn't really have any idea why they were in college until maybe their third year. It wasn't until they had the benefit of having gone through such a program and looked back on it to appreciate…

"...graduating from college is the first thing you can do where it's reasonably hard, takes a multi-year effort, and is completely optional...a signal that someone has decided to pursue something through to the end..."

I see this point-of-view a lot, and it is certainly the conventional wisdom. But, for a moment, let's abandon this belief and explore other perspectives.

What if college isn't a demonstration of tenacity or natural ability? Instead, what if education is just a game that everyone is forced to play at an early age, and what if advanced-degree seekers are those who have learned to enjoy playing the game? (Or, have been forced to play, because of economic reasons)

I certainly can buy that.

For instance, I know a lot of people with advanced degrees, and they generally fit into 3 buckets: 1) people who were expected to get an advanced degree because their parents had them, 2) people who enjoy playing games and winning external validation, 3) people who have an innate obsession with some aspect of knowledge. (BTW - I think the true scholars are category 3.)

What if people who win at education are just people who are naturally competitive, like being bounded by rules, are good at min-max game play, and who ultimately are driven by praise?

Certainly, those types of people would be excellent candidates for the corporation. But, are they also good candidates for being citizens or Humanity, in general?

And, what are other perspectives? I am just a curious person who happens to have a general dislike of conventional wisdom.

Re: I Can’t Afford a Bachelor’s Degree, So I’m Making My Own

#115
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, how do you suggest we ensure tax money is appropriately spent, outside of audits? And I think you vastly overestimate the cost of staff accountants, business office staff and compliance officers at colleges and universities. Those 'bee watchers' aren't making six, seven or eight figure salaries. More like 35,XXX-55,XXX; a very reasonable figure for accountants.

Ha, no issue with the red herring of accountant pay rates, just with the number of them there are. The ones I have real issues with pay for are the mucky mucks near the top [1], the increasing numbers of them there are [2], and the effect they have on tuition costs [3]. On reform, I'd say something similar to the IRS approach on taxes. Spend effort where there's a return on investment. IE, they're not going to audit…

I'm sorry about how lengthy this is, really I am.

Not sure how accountant pay rates are a red herring. You stated that they make 6, 7 and 8 figures; that's not accurate, I don't have hard statistics to back it up, but it just can't be. Also, the average institution (for my state) employs 1 staff accountant for every 500-600 students physically on campus, or every 800(ish) students counting on-line and commuter averages. That seems reasonable to me considering they do all of the accounting for the entire institution, not just student accounts.

[1] If you believe that college presidents have anything to do with internal controls of an institution, or have really any idea of what the audit compliance processes look like, you're stoned. The mucky mucks near the top have nothing to do with institutional audit compliance. The state and federal government does. You don't agree? Read http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-12-26/pdf/2013-30465.pd... [CAUTION .PDF]

That's one of six federal statutes that I have to be versed in, and I'm only one of four people (but it actually replaced three others I had to know in the past, yay for streamlining!!).

[2] I never made a statement about administration, and it's not really pertinent to this argument. It's correct that there are more administrators now than there were in the 70's. Again, though, what impact that has on institutional audits is really up for question, and doesn't really make sense.

[3] What's the saying. . . Correlation does not equal causation. Administration costs are going up, correct. So are the costs of every other damned thing. Pair that with a decrease in funding from the state and declining enrollment in the last 5 years and now you've got something. The answer to high college costs is not only administrator pay. Of course that's not helping, but it's much, much larger than that; attempting to shift the blame to that one area is ignorant of many factors in public education funding.

AND FINALLY. Your entire last paragraph misses the mark entirely. The institution isn't auditing the individual about the $20 lunch. They're ensuring that they have internal proof of the cost, that it is allowable to the specific fund, and that all costs are 'reasonable and prudent'. External, state and federal auditors are responsible for auditing the institution. So while that $20 meal isn't important, 50 people buying $20 meals without reason are. Again, the beauty of controls is that they apply to everyone, they are impartial and they apply across the board. You don't get to pick which legislation and regulation to enforce based on price. You get to make sure your ducks are in a row so when the state steps in, they find nothing.

Oh, and "an overall lower audit rate, but with randomized chance of audit that increases logarithmically as the charge goes up" That's sort of how it works already. The states that I've worked in have audited every school that received public money over a certain threshold annually. Federal audits only occur in institutions who receive large amounts of federal money (the largest state institutions: think University of STATE), or those who have thrown up 'red flags' in their spending. . . . such as those that have incurred many, many $20 lunches without any documentation about why these expenses occurred. . . .

Re: I Can’t Afford a Bachelor’s Degree, So I’m Making My Own

#116
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I was at university, I had a total of 18 months of 40-hours/week internships/co-ops. Those were at intern rates, but even so a year and a half of working took care of about $40k of expenses. I continued to work for some of those companies while I was in class, which covered the rest. It's not easy, but if you work hard you can at the very least keep your debt reasonable. (It is probably also worth mentioning th…

Let's be fair though. I knew one person, personally and closely, that went to school full time, worked a full time job and raised two girls (they weren't babies or toddlers though) and managed to get a 3.0+ GPA, but that doesn't mean everybody can do it. I tried (not the raising the girls bit), with a full time job and going to school full time and my grades plummeted for that semester (which caused me to have to ret…

Aye, not everyone can do it. My backup plan, if dropping out appeared to be imminent, was to take on student loans. I think that for a CS major, taking on student loans isn't actually unreasonable, since CS majors have pretty decent earning potential.

What you really want to avoid is taking on student loans, then dropping out. If you do that then you'll be left with little but debt to show for it. If you instead try to work your way through school, but still drop out, at least you won't be in debt. Dropping out is far less damaging if you don't take on student loans, which is why I made student loans my backup plan.

Re: I Can’t Afford a Bachelor’s Degree, So I’m Making My Own

#117
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I was at university, I had a total of 18 months of 40-hours/week internships/co-ops. Those were at intern rates, but even so a year and a half of working took care of about $40k of expenses. I continued to work for some of those companies while I was in class, which covered the rest. It's not easy, but if you work hard you can at the very least keep your debt reasonable. (It is probably also worth mentioning th…

Let's be fair though. I knew one person, personally and closely, that went to school full time, worked a full time job and raised two girls (they weren't babies or toddlers though) and managed to get a 3.0+ GPA, but that doesn't mean everybody can do it. I tried (not the raising the girls bit), with a full time job and going to school full time and my grades plummeted for that semester (which caused me to have to ret…

Just curious, which small town in Missouri did you go to school?

Re: I Can’t Afford a Bachelor’s Degree, So I’m Making My Own

#118
"I want America like Europe where they'll educate your kid until his head explodes. You want to go to college, go, we need you, we need doctors because people grow up and fall down and go boom, everyone is going to need a doctor, let's have three doctors per floor of every apartment building in this town. How about that as a good idea? Like that is a good idea. Okay, so let's make college tuition either free or really low and if you have a country full of whip-crack smart people you have a country the rest of the world will fear. They will not invade a country of educated people because we are so smart we'll build a laser that will burn you, the enemy, in your sleep before you can even mobilize your air force to kill us. We will kill you so fast because we are so smart and we will have foreign policy that will not piss you off to the point to where you have to attack us." Henry Rollins

Re: I Can’t Afford a Bachelor’s Degree, So I’m Making My Own

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be fair though. I knew one person, personally and closely, that went to school full time, worked a full time job and raised two girls (they weren't babies or toddlers though) and managed to get a 3.0+ GPA, but that doesn't mean everybody can do it. I tried (not the raising the girls bit), with a full time job and going to school full time and my grades plummeted for that semester (which caused me to have to ret…

Just curious, which small town in Missouri did you go to school?

"Small" being relative, of course, it was Columbia, MO. I graduated from the University of Missouri.

Re: I Can’t Afford a Bachelor’s Degree, So I’m Making My Own

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that it is their first degree, I made the possible inaccurate assumption that this person was just getting out of the US equivalent of high school. My thoughts at that age were pretty jumbled too. Many of my peers didn't really have any idea why they were in college until maybe their third year. It wasn't until they had the benefit of having gone through such a program and looked back on it to appreciate…

"...graduating from college is the first thing you can do where it's reasonably hard, takes a multi-year effort, and is completely optional...a signal that someone has decided to pursue something through to the end..." I see this point-of-view a lot, and it is certainly the conventional wisdom. But, for a moment, let's abandon this belief and explore other perspectives. What if college isn't a demonstration of tenaci…

I don't think 'conventional wisdom' means what you think it means, but setting that aside, what are you trying to say?

That people go to college for different reasons? I certainly think that would be generally agreed to.

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