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We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

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Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#111

Post by Spooky23 »

hga wrote: post #97
x0x0 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people underrate how much this benefits apple. While I'm sure there are people with different experiences, apple in general, and in my experience, don't sell shit products and stand behind what they sell. With a full motherboard changeout available at a local apple store if necessary. Contrast to hp: we had a hp laptop w/ a next business day in-home warranty that nonetheless spent a week or more in hp's repai…

Well, Sears never actually made their white goods appliances, but they used to do a very good job of sourcing their Kenmore brand ones. That's what my mother, something of a Laundry Nazi, used when she was washing for my father, who hunted and did other things that got clothes dirty, and me, my sister ... and my two younger brothers. Serious cleaning required, which I helped with. Hummm, ditto refrigerators. Now it's…

Your mom got lucky. When Kenmore was good, they were OEMing Whirlpool stuff. When they weren't, they usually sucked.

The GE stuff that you mentioned actually buying is a similar crapshoot. Until recently, GE was offshoring most whitegoods, and the quality was mostly junk. If you got the stuff made in the US or a higher end line, it's usually ok. But you never know.

If you want quality in laundry, buy Speed Queen or other vendors that make most of their money selling to laundromats.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#112

Post by Spooky23 »

gerbal wrote: post #57
davemel37 wrote: post #53

Advertising by definition is Arbitrage. Leveraging a disconnect between the value of the audience and the cost to reach and engage them with content. Efficient Markets dictates that over time advertising will become less effective. It is the natural progression of all advertising. Here's an article I wrote a while ago about how content marketing and native advertising are the same thing converging on a point where mo…

One of the flaws of many advertising strategies is that it assumes the main flaw of the market is imperfect information. However that requires a rational consumer. And Consumers are not rational. Selling ideas is as important as the good itself. Take most car advertising for example. A significant portion of the ads are from dealers advertising sales. Those are classic attempts to correct for imperfect information on…

That's the thing I always saw as lacking with online advertising -- there's no brand placement.

Online ads always seem to me to be focused on transactional response "Wow, I can use this weird trick to buy a vitamin, sign me up!"

Billboard/display advertising is really effective at this. I happen to know that a particular orthopedic medical practice that I wasn't familiar with has a walk in clinic until 10PM every day to fix broken bones, etc. That's effective advertising!

In contrast, I've been a heavy internet user since 1994. The only product I can think of that I actually learned of via online advertising is those X10 video cameras that dominated pop-up/under advertising a decade ago. That's pretty sad for advertisers!

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#113

Post by Zigurd »

josu wrote: post #75
Zigurd wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were mostly attributable to advertising, I think you would see an equivalent success built on a horizontal brand - that is, an OEM without Samsung's vertical integration. Otherwise an equally valid conjecture is that Samsung bought-in to the idea that the only way to consolidate success is through establishing a brand. As Intel did, for example. But I don't think anyone could argue that Samsung's ad campaigns…

I agree that establishing causality is very difficult and especially when it comes to the advertising business. Nevertheless, my point is that when it comes to high end Android phones it is starting to look like a commodity market. So in my opinion the only way to explain Samsung's success is either their ad spending or sheer luck, which may as well be a really good explanation.

My point is that, as with PCs, which have been commoditized for decades, Samsung's success is mainly a product of vertical integration. In fact I'd cite their recent mobile handset launch events as a prime example of marketing and advertising spending gone off the rails.

I also compared them with Intel for a reason. Intel wins because they can simultaneously push chip and chip fab technology. That's an explanation that can put most people to sleep by the fourth word. And yet, once it was a small enough part of their budget, they went into the ad market, spent tens of millions, and bought brand recognition. It was a check-off item.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#114

Post by hga »

Spooky23 wrote: post #111
hga wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Sears never actually made their white goods appliances, but they used to do a very good job of sourcing their Kenmore brand ones. That's what my mother, something of a Laundry Nazi, used when she was washing for my father, who hunted and did other things that got clothes dirty, and me, my sister ... and my two younger brothers. Serious cleaning required, which I helped with. Hummm, ditto refrigerators. Now it's…

Your mom got lucky. When Kenmore was good, they were OEMing Whirlpool stuff. When they weren't, they usually sucked. The GE stuff that you mentioned actually buying is a similar crapshoot. Until recently, GE was offshoring most whitegoods, and the quality was mostly junk. If you got the stuff made in the US or a higher end line, it's usually ok. But you never know. If you want quality in laundry, buy Speed Queen or o…

A few weeks ago a solenoid failed in that GE (it determines what the motor does to the drum and agitator), requiring a $250 repair after $45 for the visit to figure that out. I looked into buying a Speed Queen as an alternative, and based on Amazon reviews discovered a serious problem with their service. They apparently pay by the service call, so if e.g. the I gather old fashioned electromechanical timer breaks, you're fine, it's a obvious, quick replacement. But if you get a rare lemon, you're SOL.

Do you have names for other vendors that sell mostly to laundromats?

GE is now clearly declaring their current stuff is garbage, having dropped their warranty to 1 year, and the reviews confirm that. I ended up having the repair done; when combined with the fact that companies like GE get tax credits to make washers that year by year do a worse job by using less water and less hot water (something buying a Speed Queen avoids), I plan to keep pouring parts into my 2007 GE as long as that's feasible. It's got a good design.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#115

Post by hornetblack »

tobinfricke wrote: post #48
michh wrote: post #19

I remember reading the tobacco industry was actually secretly grateful when the EU banned them from advertising. As I remember it, they were in a stale-mate. The market was pretty much divided up. Most people were loyal to their brand and that was that. Despite that, they were spending a massive amount of money on advertising even though their market shares remained unchanged. The reason was that if one of them stopp…

NB, while tobacco ads are banned from TV, they are still everywhere on outdoor advertising, at least here in Germany. Actually, I went on a "street art tour" that turned out to be sponsored by a cigarette company, and they were handing out free cigarettes . So: tobacco advertising is alive and well in Germany.

Australia is very different from that. They banned advertising to consumers in most ways. They still can put ads in magazines for retailers (because they aren't the end user).

Now we also have "plain packaging laws" which means packets cannot have the Tobacco companies design on it. They must be olive green and have government anti-smoking ads, and the product name in plaintext.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#116

Post by [deleted] »

michh wrote: post #19

I remember reading the tobacco industry was actually secretly grateful when the EU banned them from advertising. As I remember it, they were in a stale-mate. The market was pretty much divided up. Most people were loyal to their brand and that was that. Despite that, they were spending a massive amount of money on advertising even though their market shares remained unchanged. The reason was that if one of them stopp…

[deleted]

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#117

Post by electromagnetic »

davemel37 wrote: post #49
michh wrote: post #19

I remember reading the tobacco industry was actually secretly grateful when the EU banned them from advertising. As I remember it, they were in a stale-mate. The market was pretty much divided up. Most people were loyal to their brand and that was that. Despite that, they were spending a massive amount of money on advertising even though their market shares remained unchanged. The reason was that if one of them stopp…

In the branding world, the general philosphy is that PR and word of mouth build brands and advertising defends brands and market share. In your theory, if advertising stopped existing the world would save a ton of money and everyone would maintain market share... but since brands are built on PR and Word of Mouth, brands will always be at risk if they can't advertise and keep you on the forefront of their mind. They…

Advertising creates a disincentive for trying unknown products. Combine this with brand loyalty from good PR, and you keep control of your market share.

This is well illustrated with Ironbru in Scotland. Lucozade and Tango in the UK in general. The introduction of Fanta into the North American market too, I knew it from the UK and one of the last flavours introduced was actually Fanta Orange (the most popular one in the UK, direct rival with Tango) due to the saturated market for that type of drink.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#118

Post by pyk »

gerbal wrote: post #56
hawkharris wrote: post #12

This reminds me of a fascinating article in The New Yorker called "Twilight of the Brands." [0] The author's basic argument is that brands have historically filled an information gap. Before the Internet, when consumers didn't have tons of on-demand info about products, brands were a compass that pointed them in the right direction. If the last Sylvania TV you bought worked well, you might buy another one without hun…

For medium scale purchases with many interchangeable competitors, this may be true. But for cheap impulse purchase and for high-end commodities, brand still matters quite a bit. Apple and Samsung are two great examples of higher end companies whose products aren't appreciably superior or inferior to most of their competitors, but through relentless advertising, they have made themselves seem distinct from their compe…

Piggybacking this, Coca Cola is the king of marketing prowess, in part because the product stays the exact same (or 99.8% the same). It's part of their "moat." Tech can't do that, in my opinion almost by definition due to expected and continuous innovation -- you can't stay the same. You do see it sometimes in short bursts -- such as with the Thinkpad brand (but even that line will be short lived vs. Coke).

With Coke, they can then use that consistency on anything from Santa Claus to the Olympics to feed on nostalgia of that recurring same-ness -- they're investing in a lifetime of feelings, not a few years or months of popularity. Hershey's, Disney (high repeat visits), and McDonald's to some extent are other great examples of being able to leverage long term marketing on consistent or nostalgic products -- something difficult for tech to do.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#119

Post by xenadu02 »

Zigurd wrote: post #46
josu wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the point he is making, and I agree that the importance of advertising is declining. However, I wouldn't be able to explain Samsung's success without looking at advertising.

If that were mostly attributable to advertising, I think you would see an equivalent success built on a horizontal brand - that is, an OEM without Samsung's vertical integration. Otherwise an equally valid conjecture is that Samsung bought-in to the idea that the only way to consolidate success is through establishing a brand. As Intel did, for example. But I don't think anyone could argue that Samsung's ad campaigns…

Huh? Samsung pays kickbacks to sales people and carriers. At least with regards to their top of the line phones, that's how they have muscled out all their Android competitors. It's a vicious cycle that you can't sustain unless you're a huge company that can subsidize the strategy with cash from profitable businesses.

When the minimum-wage salesperson at the carrier store or mall kiosk gets $25 in their pocket for selling the top line Samsung phone and $0 for any other phone, the "choice" is clear: customers will be walking out with Samsung phones. That is a majority of their marketing budget, though they go through great lengths to bury the lead in what little numbers they release.

Part of the reason Apple gets so much organic press is they're the only one to release actual hard numbers on a regular basis, though they are certainly coy in some areas.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#120

Post by marincounty »

I think some idiotic consumer products will always require advertising--like soda, candy bars, figh fashion, etc.?

There are some industries like auto insurance where I think it's a waste of time. Every year I call around and get the cheapest insurance. I face had good luck with Mercury(last 4 years). Esurance only quotes for 6 months--that's why they seem cheap.

As to Internet advertising; my biggest grip lately is having to watch a ad video before the intended video.(I turn down the volume and look away for 20 seconds).

I have a feeling Google tracking works too well. I am waiting for the day DuckDuckgo is King. I don't like to be tracked. I don't like my house photographed.(Google put up previously requested blurred homes, cars, persons without any notice. If you think you have a blurred out house--check again.)

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