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So a female programmer walks into a bar…

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Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#111

Post by pbhjpbhj »

bronson wrote: post #83
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've been doing this stuff professional for around 20 years now, and I've worked with oodles of female programmers over the years [...] >It really boggles the imagination... where do these guys come up with this shit? // Have you ever witnessed this sort of behaviour. Perhaps it's so rare that instead you can level your surprise towards anyone trying to say such misogyny is commonplace. Would you accept, however, th…

If yes then you'd better really try to understand this cartoon: http://xkcd.com/1138/

To be clear. You're saying apparent skew by sex of characteristics is simply down to inequitable consideration of the populations?

So, for example, men aren't in any way - as a population - stronger, say, and so more capable as bricklayers [in general] it's just that we're not analysing the populations properly? So, you'd warrant that arm strength, which follows a close correlation with sex (ie if your arms are able to lift more mass you're more likely to be male) has no bearing on ability to manipulate heavy weights. Just as an off-the-cuff example.

In anticipation: Don't come back with the "but there are female bodybuilders who can lift more than most men" type retort either, lets be adult about this. Of course there are, that offers no refutation.

I'm saying take a randomly selected population of 1000 women and 1000 men, teach them a skill. Test them. One population will be better generally than the other across repetitions of the experiment.

FWIW in my country girls perform better on average in maths at school, so maybe women would be better in the proposed experiment than men. Of course that speaks nothing to whether more women want to be programmers; it would be interesting nonetheless. Now take the top 100 [say] performers: sometimes [within an instance of the experiment] their modal sex will be the same as the better performing group, sometimes it will differ but I'd warrant across repetitions of the experiment the modal sex of the top performers is largely stable across many fields.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#112

Post by afarrell »

arrrg wrote: post #98
imgabe wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, your working hypothesis based on that comment is that they're an otherwise friendly and fair-minded person, but when they see that a woman wrote a blog about programming they feel the need to go out of their way to write a comment telling them to stfu? Anything's possible, I guess. But, based on my particular lifetime of experience with people, jerks are usually jerks in multiple aspects of their life.

I mean, sure, of course. But they are still being sexist.

Hence, "they are sexist because they are cruel."

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#113

Post by cgriswald »

JPKab wrote: post #29
ufmace wrote: post #13

Misleading title, there is no bar in this story. But seriously, I think this is a refreshing article, considering the usual gender in tech articles here. I'd like to think that there are plenty of places a woman can work as a professional developer and not be subject to such rampant discrimination and sexual harassment that most of us find it difficult to believe. I recommend everybody believe and act as if there are…

I was recently in an 11 week class for Machine Learning. 3 of the best students in this course were females. What was funny to me was how gender was never really an issue for anyone. Competent people are typically awestruck by smart people who are displaying brilliance. I was always cracking jokes about "well, I'm not (insert her name here), so I'll have to go look at her code before I can do that." The big differenc…

It is very common for people to blame external factors for their own shortcomings. Gender descrimination may have played a part in whatever trama made her so defensive, but it also may have played no part at all. Her perception of gender descrimination is skewed, so why would you take it at face value? We are all capable of experiencing events which never actually occured (as she did in your class) and so scapegoats are not necessarily tied to the events and mindset which lead to the problem in the first place.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#114

Post by afarrell »

protonfish wrote: post #45
mindcrime wrote: post #19

“you’re a chick, leave this crap to REAL developers”. I really don't understand guys who say (or think) shit like this. Honestly, it annoys me not so much because it's sexist, or misogynistic, or bigoted or whatever, but rather because it's fucking stupid . I've been doing this stuff professional for around 20 years now, and I've worked with oodles of female programmers over the years, and I've never seen any reason…

I think you are being distracted by the content of the comment. This kind of nonsense has nothing to do with sexism. (Or if it were racist it has nothing to do with racism, or any other types of 'isms.) Some people are simply cruel, angry, sadistic bullies and the internet gives them the anonymity to get away with it. The reason for the comment was only to hurt.

"has nothing to do with sexism" is too strong. imgabe has it right: "they aren't cruel because they are sexist, they are sexist because they are cruel."

Consider 1960's era Chicago real estate agent who makes money by the following process:

1) Scare white people out of the neighborhood by having a black woman push a baby in a stroller outside their house.

2) Buy their house for cheap

3) Rent-to-own the house to black people and just as they are about to own it, bring up some bullshit thing and evict them.

He is more likely motivated by greed than a desire to fuck over black people for the sake of racism. But he's still acting racist and contributing to the system of systemic racism. A troll how picks sexist remarks to fuck with people isn't really motivated by a sincere desire to advance sexism...but they are still contributing to sexism as a systemic problem.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#115

Post by xamebax »

It's very nice to read some women have positive experiences and that some companies are able to create a discrimination-free culture. I'm happy for Gosia and it gives me some hope for the future.

What I am scared of is some people using what Gosia wrote as an argument to silence other women: "Look! Read! See? It's not bad! So shut up".

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#116

Post by potatolicious »

arrrg wrote: post #91
potatolicious wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're real-life trolls. They may not actually believe the things they say, but they say them because they know it will upset you. In some ways these people scare me more than actual sexists/racists/whateverists, because they're not ignorant, they just take joy in suffering, and actively manipulate people in such a way that maximizes chaos and pain. That mindset concerns me much more than someone who actually believ…

I’m honestly not willing to make that distinction. I don’t care about intent, I care about what someone says.

I think the distinction of intent is important, though it certainly doesn't excuse the words. Someone who is saying something sexist out of ignorance can be reached out to, possibly brought over to the right side with reason and the right approach.

Someone who is saying it even though they know they're wrong, just to get a rise out of people, is sociopathic, and engaging with them would be a waste of time.

In other words, some people are bigots of circumstance - having been born, raised in a time and place, or otherwise exposed to certain views at certain moments. They can become allies, or at least brought to a position that isn't firmly bigoted. I think it's worthwhile to recognize the difference if only for the pragmatic purpose of knowing which arguments might be worthwhile and which are clear wastes of time.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#117

Post by fallinghawks »

potatolicious wrote: post #89
arrrg wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t really make sense, does it? Why do you believe that someone who says something sexist (or racist) is not actually sexist (or racist)? I see no reason at all for this assumption. It seems non-sensical to me. Those people want to be cruel, sure, but they are also sexist (or racist). Also, being sexist (or racist) is as much defined by actions and words as it is by intent. Actually, intent is pretty irrelev…

They're real-life trolls. They may not actually believe the things they say, but they say them because they know it will upset you. In some ways these people scare me more than actual sexists/racists/whateverists, because they're not ignorant, they just take joy in suffering, and actively manipulate people in such a way that maximizes chaos and pain. That mindset concerns me much more than someone who actually believ…

Agreed, but I suspect trolls do to some extent agree/believe. If they actively were against it, they wouldn't say it (or at least I certainly hope so). What concerns me is the casualness with which trolls threaten rape/death/other violence behind the anonymity of the internet; the more frequently this behavior is seen, the more normalized it becomes.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#118

Post by sampo »

lmm wrote: post #80
imgabe wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a room has 9 people with a net worth of $0 and Bill Gates in it, then in the statistical, average sense the net worth of everyone in the room is $7.6 billion dollars. But the average doesn't really tell you anything about one particular person.

It tells you something . It might still make the room a good place to pitch your savings product for wealthy investors. Of course more detail is better, but you have to work with what you know (and look to learn more when you can).

> a good place to pitch your savings product for wealthy investors

I think Bill Gates is trying to spend his money, not save it.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#119

Post by mindcrime »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #81
mindcrime wrote: post #19

“you’re a chick, leave this crap to REAL developers”. I really don't understand guys who say (or think) shit like this. Honestly, it annoys me not so much because it's sexist, or misogynistic, or bigoted or whatever, but rather because it's fucking stupid . I've been doing this stuff professional for around 20 years now, and I've worked with oodles of female programmers over the years, and I've never seen any reason…

>I've been doing this stuff professional for around 20 years now, and I've worked with oodles of female programmers over the years [...] >It really boggles the imagination... where do these guys come up with this shit? // Have you ever witnessed this sort of behaviour. Perhaps it's so rare that instead you can level your surprise towards anyone trying to say such misogyny is commonplace. Would you accept, however, th…

Honestly, having worked as a developer for 15+ years and in IT (in other capacities) for 20+, I don't remember ever seeing (first hand) anything of this nature directed at any of the women I worked with. That's not to say it never happened, but I either didn't see it, or it was never mentioned to me.

And by and large, the male colleagues I've had over the years have never struck me as having any such attitudes towards female programmers. I guess that's part of why this whole notion seems so foreign to me.

Re: So a female programmer walks into a bar…

#120

Post by hawkharris »

bucketsbuckets wrote: post #106
ChuckMcM wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as we're going meta here, I am thinking it would be more accurate statement would be that policy discussion posts tend to attract hundreds of comments. Policy discussions are the bike shedding topics of forums like this one. Everyone can participate because they require only an opinion and the barrier to having direct experience is low. I don't believe it is a bad thing, rather it is the fact that a lot of pe…

Exactly. Discussions on these topics inherently require subjective value judgments on top of "more objective qualitative and quantitative sources", and I can't imagine trying to limit the comments to only the latter.

I appreciate your point. It's nice to have subjects that everyone can discuss. The key is probably to find a healthy balance between personal opinions and evidence-based writing.
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