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The Meaning of Life

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Re: The Meaning of Life

#111

Post by jqm »

rehack wrote: post #110
jqm wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it seems. But life itself is simply sunlight falling to earth if you think about it biochemically. In other words as far as we know, life is a channel for and manifestation of entropy.

>But life itself is simply sunlight falling to earth if you think about it biochemically Don't you think, that by same extension, car is just Gas/Fuel coming in from a Gas/Fuel station? I am sorry, but I find most essays on the topic of 'meaning of life' escapist. Or rather answering a different question on how best to live life, with the assumption that the real meaning is unknowable. None of these essays satisfy my…

In your example I would say body=car. The motion of the car would be life. And that is indeed a channel of gas from the fuel station. The car is needed to channel it, but the car is not it. There is an active component.

I agree with the rest of your post. Talking about the "meaning of life" is masturbatory in my opinion. Not that there is anything wrong with a little self pleasure. It just doesn't produce much.

Re: The Meaning of Life

#112

Post by javert »

baddox wrote: post #109
javert wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not defining pleasure to mean "getting what one desires," hence it is non synonomous with the definition you are using for "utility." Pleasure is a particular sensation. For instance. If you get something you desire, you may feel pleasure, or you may not. Or maybe you'll feel pleasure for a little while, but not as long as you expected to. Going in the reverse direction, if you feel pleasure, you may have gotten…

Why then do you think people should pursue pleasure (your definition) rather than things they desire?

Pleasure is the only thing that is inherently valuable to a conscious organism. It feels good.

There would be no reason to pursue the things you desire if pursuing them and/or getting them didn't make you feel good.

If pursuing them and/or getting them does make you feel good, there is a reason to pursue them. But the reason is because they make you feel good---because they bring pleasure.

Re: The Meaning of Life

#113

Post by dominotw »

xmonkee wrote: post #108
dominotw wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not sadistic. Life was full of suffering for vedic nomads who finally settled down in cities. Instead of turing outwards philosophers of that time lie buddha and mahavira turned inwards for comfort.

Life is suffering regardless of your position in time and space if you haven't attained nibanna. Its not specific to the vedic nomads otherwise there would be no need to walk the eight fold path in the first world. Suffering is the first noble truth.

>Life is suffering regardless of your position in time and space Is it though? I've lived several third world countries and a couple of first world countries. I know from first hand experience that life in rich countries is much much less suffering and is good 80% of the time whereas in third world countries is 80% suffering.

What is the point of our developments in science and technology if everyone is still suffering equally.

Re: The Meaning of Life

#114

Post by baddox »

javert wrote: post #112
baddox wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why then do you think people should pursue pleasure (your definition) rather than things they desire?

Pleasure is the only thing that is inherently valuable to a conscious organism. It feels good. There would be no reason to pursue the things you desire if pursuing them and/or getting them didn't make you feel good. If pursuing them and/or getting them does make you feel good, there is a reason to pursue them. But the reason is because they make you feel good---because they bring pleasure.

For me, it feels good to pursue things I desire, even if it involves immediate physical discomfort, like exercise.

Re: The Meaning of Life

#115

Post by virtualwhys »

michaelsbradley wrote: post #106
virtualwhys wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious, are you familiar with the writings of Thomas Merton? Outside of Paradise Lost, the other book that made me realize the Christian leap is not without reason is, "The 7 Story Mountain" Anyway, obviously you are a fully converted Christian, congratulations on your happiness ;-)

I have not read that book by the late Thomas Merton, though I am familiar with the author and I've heard others recommend Merton's works numerous times. I should probably put it back on my "to read" list. From a Catholic perspective, reason and faith necessarily go together and official Church teaching rejects fideism[1] outright. That's not to say that individuals don't experience "leaps of faith", wherein reason an…

Thanks for the links, I have yet to read Augustine's "Confessions", that's going on the Amazon order list.

I'm a big fan of spiritual autobiography, which is exactly what the 7 Story Mountain is all about, the story of Merton's fall and salvation -- it's really quite beautiful, can't recommend it highly enough ;-)

Curious, may I ask why the Church seems to be emphasized over Jesus in your posts? Put another way, before the Church came to be there was Jesus -- should the cart not come before the horse?

Re: The Meaning of Life

#116

Post by drumdance »

spking wrote: post #4

For the vast majority of people, constantly thinking about the meaning of life and dwelling on the fact that you're going to die seems like a recipe for anxiety. Trying to adopt a set of contradictory rules to follow would likely only compound that anxiety. To summarize the formula laid out by the author: 1. Remember, you're going to die! 2. Plan for the future, but not too much or you'll have multiple divorces and n…

I think of it more as exception driven:

1. Am I happy now? If so, keep doing what you're doing.

2. If not, is what's making me unhappy really important in the scheme of things? If not, goto 1.

3. Focus on changing your situation, or your reaction to it.

If you get to #3, ideally try to find meaning in the process of change itself rather than focusing too much on the end state.

Re: The Meaning of Life

#117

Post by michaelsbradley »

virtualwhys wrote: post #115
michaelsbradley wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not read that book by the late Thomas Merton, though I am familiar with the author and I've heard others recommend Merton's works numerous times. I should probably put it back on my "to read" list. From a Catholic perspective, reason and faith necessarily go together and official Church teaching rejects fideism[1] outright. That's not to say that individuals don't experience "leaps of faith", wherein reason an…

Thanks for the links, I have yet to read Augustine's "Confessions", that's going on the Amazon order list. I'm a big fan of spiritual autobiography, which is exactly what the 7 Story Mountain is all about, the story of Merton's fall and salvation -- it's really quite beautiful, can't recommend it highly enough ;-) Curious, may I ask why the Church seems to be emphasized over Jesus in your posts? Put another way, befo…

It's not an auto-biography, but one of my favorite books is a biography of a modern saint, or at least a man who I think will be canonized some day: Strange Vagabond of God[1], by Fr. John Dove, S.J.

The book tells the life-story of John Bradburne[2] – mystic, poet, wanderer, care-taker of lepers. There are very few recordings of John reciting his own poetry[3] but a couple of them were featured in a short film about his life: Mombe! (Cry Cattle!)[4] and Love (1971)[5].

For a Catholic Christian, the Church and Jesus always go together, for the Church is Our Lord's mystical body[6], of which he is the head. The Apostle St. Paul in his epistle to Timothy refers to the Church as the "pillar and foundation of truth"[7]; St. Cyprian of Carthage, a bishop in the 3rd Century, would remind his flock that "he cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother."[8] The Church is the context for my personal relationships with Jesus and His Blessed Mother[9]. It is in and through the Church that I have received and am continually strengthened by the life of Divine Grace[10], nourished with the very body and blood of Jesus[11], and taught the truth about myself, other men, the world and its Creator and Redeemer.

[1] http://www.johnbradburne.com/shop.php

[&] http://books.google.com/books?id=VjdXWDpt34YC&pg

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bradburne

[3] http://johnbradburnepoems.com/

[4] http://vimeo.com/23668242

[5] http://vimeo.com/23669547

[6] http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/docum...

[7] 1 Timothy 3:15, http://newadvent.org/bible/1ti003.htm

[8] On the Unity of the Church, paragraph 6, http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/fathers/view....

[9] http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/true_devotion/index.p...

[10] http://www.christianperfection.info/tta5.php#bk1

[11] http://www.livemass.org/LiveMass/dailyHD.html

Re: The Meaning of Life

#118

Post by virtualwhys »

michaelsbradley wrote: post #117
virtualwhys wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the links, I have yet to read Augustine's "Confessions", that's going on the Amazon order list. I'm a big fan of spiritual autobiography, which is exactly what the 7 Story Mountain is all about, the story of Merton's fall and salvation -- it's really quite beautiful, can't recommend it highly enough ;-) Curious, may I ask why the Church seems to be emphasized over Jesus in your posts? Put another way, befo…

It's not an auto-biography, but one of my favorite books is a biography of a modern saint, or at least a man who I think will be canonized some day: Strange Vagabond of God[1], by Fr. John Dove, S.J. The book tells the life-story of John Bradburne[2] – mystic, poet, wanderer, care-taker of lepers. There are very few recordings of John reciting his own poetry[3] but a couple of them were featured in a short film about…

John Bradburne, pretty far out look in his eyes back in the 70s, unkempt and going old school desert style asceticism no doubt. Would like to hear a recording of him reciting a poem (same-ish deal with Merton, there are some recordings from Gethsemani, the monastery that 7 Story Mountain leads to, but not much, few things on Youtube if you search for it).

Peace Pilgrim, if you've heard of her, while not technically Christian, lived a Godly life, pretty amazing faith to walk across the country in the name of peace, penniless, only taking food or shelter if offered -- her autobiography is astounding.

I'll put this one out there for contrast, Pure Heart, Enlightened Mind[1] I imagine you've prayed from time to time, no? Obviously, yes ;-) Ok, now, let's say your calling is such that rather than laying down to sleep at night, you are drawn to prayer instead of sleep, and you do that for 1,000 days sitting upright. Maura O'Halleran is the result of that. It's the best account of spiritual awakening I have come across as it's her diary, the living account of her transformation from wandering free spirit to canonized saint in Japan.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Pure-Heart-Enlightened-Mind-OHalloran/...

Re: The Meaning of Life

#119

Post by xmonkee »

dominotw wrote: post #113
xmonkee wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life is suffering regardless of your position in time and space if you haven't attained nibanna. Its not specific to the vedic nomads otherwise there would be no need to walk the eight fold path in the first world. Suffering is the first noble truth.

>Life is suffering regardless of your position in time and space Is it though? I've lived several third world countries and a couple of first world countries. I know from first hand experience that life in rich countries is much much less suffering and is good 80% of the time whereas in third world countries is 80% suffering. What is the point of our developments in science and technology if everyone is still sufferi…

From a Buddhist perspective: In what country do you not have death of loved ones, old age, sickness? In what country do you not have attachments, fear or sadness? Technology can make us more comfortable, but not "solve" life for us. Some people have more comfort in life than others, animals are even worse off than poor people, and gods in heavens are more comfortable than Bill Gates, yet all of them will face death and sickness in this life (including the gods in buddhism). The only escape is Nirvana.

From a secular perspective: There are lots of ways to look at this. We could see everyone as being on a spectrum. Your happiness levels depend on your position on the spectrum relative to your peers. Poor people in the US have cars, yet they are extremely unhappy and suffering. The same amount of wealth in India would make you middle class and much happier. So clearly the happiness is not a function only of money but also of perception. People were in general just as happy or sad 3000 years ago as they are today, what has technology achieved then? If technology was making the world more equal, I would support the proposition that development is a net positive, as everyone would have the chance to grow spiritually rather than spend a human birth just surviving, but that's not the case. Technology divides more than it equalizes. There is no "point" to technology, it will happen. There's no use fighting it, there's no use supporting it over everything else. Technological progress is a fact of life. There is a point to equality, it allows everyone to achieve their potential and maybe reduce actual suffering on the planet.

Re: The Meaning of Life

#120

Post by javert »

baddox wrote: post #114
javert wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pleasure is the only thing that is inherently valuable to a conscious organism. It feels good. There would be no reason to pursue the things you desire if pursuing them and/or getting them didn't make you feel good. If pursuing them and/or getting them does make you feel good, there is a reason to pursue them. But the reason is because they make you feel good---because they bring pleasure.

For me, it feels good to pursue things I desire, even if it involves immediate physical discomfort, like exercise.

That is the same as saying: For me, it is pleasurable to pursue things I desire, even if it involved immediate physical discomfort, like exercise.

In fact, if you want to replace "pleasure" in my whole argument with "good feeling," that is perfectly fine.

Separately, I think you may be equating "satisfying desires" with "feeling good." They definitely aren't the same. In fact, you want to pick values (=desires) in your life that are going to maximize feeling good when you pursue and achieve them.

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