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Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

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Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#111

Post by lttlrck »

pakile wrote: post #49
zyang wrote: post #4

Would you buy an eight year used Tesla for 30k? I'm a fan of Tesla and hope to be an owner some day, but I think the author is being overly optimistic here.

This is definitely an important factor in the model. The frame of mind I tried to use is, what would I pay today, in 2014, for a luxury car of Tesla caliber that is, say, Model Year 2006? Then I took a few other things into account: - Quantitatively, given the paucity of data on Model S resales (I've looked at this and I think prices are high because supply is low), what does depreciation history on the Roadster impl…

What range did your imagined 2006 model have?

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#112

Post by hellweaver666 »

robmcm wrote: post #94
dm2 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is that many people can't own an electric vehicle because neither their apartment/condo or work has a place to charge it. You basically have to be a home owner in order to own an electric vehicle. That's not an easy situation to solve either.

I live in London and this is an issue that a lot of potential EV owners. Having seen how the councils have added "club car" spaces for car rental schemes I could see them adding charge parking spaces, potentially with free electricity. Hopefully this will be a non issue in a few years.

I live in Amsterdam, we have Electric Charge parking spots all over the city, but I believe you have to subscribe to something to use them and they probably only make up 1 in 20 spaces (which are already in very high demand in this city) so you probably also need a parking permit for the area as well.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#113

Post by rfrey »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #64
pravda wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>400hp electric motor costs about $24,000 vs. a 400hp gas engine at about $6000. You think the motor in the Telsa costs 24 large? I'd say you are off by an order of magnitude. What are the big-ticket repair items on an gas car? The engine and the transmission. Electric motors are maintenance-free, and the Telsa doesn't have a transmission. Also, there is minimal vibration and heat compared to a gas engine. I would gu…

> I'd say you are off by an order of magnitude. On what basis? I know he didn't cite, and I'm not trying to put the burden of proof on you, but I'm curious why you think this. As in, I'd like to see some data (from either side). I did some brief searching and he is correct that [45]00 HP brushless motors seem to go in the low five figures (at least on Ebay, which I know is not representative of Tesla's costs). I'm ha…

In that range the price usually includes the controller and associated power electronics, which is a significant fraction of the cost.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#114

Post by harmegido »

mintykeen wrote: post #110

I think it's priceless to be able to look your kids in the eyes and say we bought a car for our family that helps make the planet better for you when you grow up. And supporting a company that is trying to do that is well worth spending more.

If it makes you feel better, then great. But realize that any amount of individual actions isn't going to make a difference. We need action taken by governments.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#115

Post by loceng »

D_Alex wrote: post #108

The model seems flawed. The financing/opportunity costs are not included (AFAICT...). A better way to construct the model would be to avoid trying to account for year-by-year depreciation, and only include the initial purchase cost and eventual sale cost in the cash flow. Unfortunately (you might be able to tell I'm a Tesla fan), this makes the Tesla S less attractive in comparison to other cars due to its higher up-…

They're target market initially is those with cash / who can afford it upfront, though they do offer leasing.

Once they have the $30k version then it will be attractive to most everyone, including with leasing options.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#116

Post by chrisBob »

The Model S is a great deal compared to similar cars, but this list is just silly. He is an economist that just goes through and picks the highest trim level of 9 different cars, and then decides to compare them based solely on cost to the Model S.

I contend that a $22,195 Subaru would win this contest hands down. If you want this comparison to be believable compare like vehicles. Don't just compare the car you want to theMostExpensiveHondaICouldSpecOut.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#117

Post by btian »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #74
btian wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't cost $1000. What you're paying for is R&D. Just like a Windows 8 DVD doesn't cost hundred of dollars to make

The implicit claim being that Tesla does not factor in R&D when they charge consumers for replacements?

No, just pointing out that processed silicon does not cost Intel anything close to $1000.

Also I doubt R&D cost for an electric motor is high because the technology is mature.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#118

Post by mehrdada »

jesusmichael wrote: post #33
natural219 wrote: post #19

I have also ran similar calculations in my head. I think what I'd want to be convinced is a thorough analysis from a mechanical/industrial engineer on how much you can expect to save from a fully electric car on maintenance. The claim I've heard from Tesla is that, since there are much fewer moving parts within an electric motor, the car will last substantially longer. While this makes intuitive sense, I would love t…

The statement that electric motors have fewer moving parts so they last substantially longer is a fallacy that electric car proponents have been spreading for years. There are still many, moving parts which require servicing and can fail at a rate of similarly serviced gas engines. In fact servicing (rewinding) is quite a labor intensive and expensive operation, given the price of copper or other conductive material…

> yes electric motors need oil changes too

"Oil change" for an electric motor is fundamentally nothing like the oil change you do for an internal combustion engine. A piston engine operates at much higher temperatures, and cannot fully isolate leakage from oil compartment, causing a tiny amount of oil to get burned with fuel as it operates.

"Oil change" in an electric motor is much more like lubricating other moving parts of the car or other machinery, not the engine of a gasoline car.

In addition to that, an electric car (at least the Model S), is much much simpler in design. The motor is basically connected directly to the wheels, removing a ton of parts in the process. It's simpler to start and simpler to cool. Yes, it can still break, but it's much more similar to your hard drive failing than your traditional car.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#119

Post by chrisBob »

mehrdada wrote: post #118
jesusmichael wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The statement that electric motors have fewer moving parts so they last substantially longer is a fallacy that electric car proponents have been spreading for years. There are still many, moving parts which require servicing and can fail at a rate of similarly serviced gas engines. In fact servicing (rewinding) is quite a labor intensive and expensive operation, given the price of copper or other conductive material…

> yes electric motors need oil changes too "Oil change" for an electric motor is fundamentally nothing like the oil change you do for an internal combustion engine. A piston engine operates at much higher temperatures, and cannot fully isolate leakage from oil compartment, causing a tiny amount of oil to get burned with fuel as it operates. "Oil change" in an electric motor is much more like lubricating other moving…

I agree, people should think of an electric motor oil change more like changing transmission fluid or gear oil than a 3k mile oil change.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#120

Post by jamesaguilar »

ericd wrote: post #104
jamesaguilar wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often come to the wrong conclusion when "just thinking" about it, especially in domains where I am not even a novice. Also, the fact that I don't find listings for 500hp brushless motors for I can see where you get your belief -- I wasn't questioning that it is a reasonable one to hold. But I am asking for evidence that compels me to a confidence level I'd actually bet on. Data will be required. Thought experiments…

You're making an assertion that runs counter to the common wisdom that electric cars will require less maintenance, so the burden of proof is on you. The fact that you can't find brushless motors online that retail for less than $10k is not convincing, because it's a new use case, a unique design, and they're not selling them outside of cars. You don't know what the pricing is. As far as materials, that amount of cop…

I never made that assertion. I'm only asking questions.

"Common wisdom" does not create a burden of proof for detractors, especially if the common wisdom is never, that I can find, backed up with evidence. That is absurd. It would be like saying that the burden is on non religious people to prove that Jesus is not god because billions of people think he is.

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