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Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

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Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#111

Post by cjfont »

ssmoot wrote: post #79
peeters wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the distribution mechanism in itself affect the quality? It's just a way of getting new software on the car. You can have the exact same standards of quality for an update installed over the air as one installed at a service centre.

Except at a service center there's presumably the opportunity to replace the firmware chip or board if they brick it during the update whereas a bad OTA update leaves you little option. OTOH I'd risk a bad OTA update 1% of the time if it meant avoiding the service center the other 99% of the time. And I'm sure a bad update is just a call and a tow away from a fix at a Tesla service center. Unless you're on a road-tri…

You might want to turn off updates during road trips.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#112

Post by stcredzero »

protomyth wrote: post #77
nlh wrote: post #24

His best line: > The rationale given for the regulation change that requires auto companies to sell through dealers is that it ensures 'consumer protection'. If you believe this, Gov. Christie has a bridge closure he wants to sell you! Unless they are referring to the mafia version of 'protection', this is obviously untrue. Nicely done, Elon. Nicely done.

Although personally satisfying for the writer, that is a pretty good example of something never to write in a letter that you want to positively influence a situation. Referring to a scandal by a politician when lobbying isn't really going to work, and all letters addresses "to the people" are lobbying.

that is a pretty good example of something never to write in a letter that you want to positively influence a situation.

Right. It does close the door to Christie deciding to do a turnaround and adopt the issue as a crusader for the people. Actually, considering that Gov. Christie is a politically powerful man with an apparent history of underhanded retaliation, I think it's really the last thing you want to do.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#113

Post by robbles »

stcredzero wrote: post #39
skore wrote: post #10

> An even bigger conflict of interest with auto dealers is that they make most of their profit from service, but electric cars require much less service than gasoline cars. There are no oil, spark plug or fuel filter changes, no tune-ups and no smog checks needed for an electric car. Also, all Tesla Model S vehicles are capable of over-the-air updates to upgrade the software, just like your phone or computer, so no v…

An even bigger conflict of interest with auto dealers is that they make most of their profit from service I am old enough to remember what owning a car was like when things were changing away from mechanical devices one could understand and tinker with and becoming nondescript hunks of plastic you had to buy from a manufacturer. (I'm talking about the ignition system, as one specific example.) There was always a bit…

I agree with the idea in principle, that electric cars are a net positive for reliability and minimizing service costs.

However, when you talk nostalgically about the good old days of cars being "mechanical devices one could understand and tinker with", and then turn around and talk about the new generation of electric cars being somehow equivalent, it seems a little logically inconsistent to me.

Make no mistake, a Tesla is just as much of a "hunk of plastic" when it comes to fixing or modifying it yourself. Expecting any complex piece of modern electronics to be similarly hackable to a car from the last century is a little unrealistic.

EDIT: sounds like we're basically in agreement on this. I misunderstood the previous comment.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#114

Post by MartinCron »

protomyth wrote: post #81
300bps wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chris Christie all but had the Republican presidential nomination sewn up before the bridge closure scandal. Between that and this nonsense, his reputation as a "non-politician" has been tremendously tarnished.

Chris Christie wouldn't have made it through the primaries. His polling numbers among the people who vote in primaries were not that good.

Yeah, he was always a leading favorite Republican candidate among non-Republicans. Primary voters? No way.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#115

Post by tzs »

grifpete wrote: post #83
seizethecheese wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment exemplifies why I come to Hacker News. The ability to be for a cause, yet still call out any bullshit is unfortunately quite rare.

It seems it was the calling out that was bullshit. :)

No, it was not. The law, which has been on the books for a long time in New Jersey, prohibited direct sales.

It was possible to read part of the law as being written in a way that would not apply to Tesla, but would apply to nearly all other current makers. (I mentioned this in a Reddit discussion, and someone pointed out that another part of New Jersey law made it so that reading was clearly not correct, and the law prohibiting other makers from selling direct did pretty clearly cover Tesla).

The new rule is basically clarifying that yes, the current law does indeed also apply to Tesla, and anyone who issued any permits or otherwise had approved Tesla's sales was in error.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#116

Post by MartinCron »

mncolinlee wrote: post #107

Having bought a Nissan LEAF, I can say with confidence that traditional auto dealers are where electric vehicles go unsold. Numerous members of our electric auto owners group share the same exact stories. You go to the dealer specifically asking for an electric car and the salesman tries to make you change your mind to another vehicle. Considering the bonus structure at most dealerships, there is no incentive to sell…

It's amazing to think that even with all of this horrible experience at Nissan dealers, the Leaf is still selling so well. Imagine how strong it would be if they had real retail support.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#117

Post by batoure »

marssaxman wrote: post #48
smacktoward wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a terrific salespitch, especially in how it raises the subject of OTA updates while adroitly waltzing you past the obvious worry that a poorly tested OTA update will brick your car.

Yeah. I am completely uninterested in owning a vehicle which is 0wned by the manufacturer.

whats the difference? 20% of Americans lease their cars from manufacturers right now, when you lease something by its nature you don't own it. Another 60% make use of financing when they buy, in which case the bank owns your car.

If you are trying to make an argument about control then make it and maybe give us some more information than just the conclusion of your thoughts.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#118

Post by stcredzero »

cjfont wrote: post #111
ssmoot wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except at a service center there's presumably the opportunity to replace the firmware chip or board if they brick it during the update whereas a bad OTA update leaves you little option. OTOH I'd risk a bad OTA update 1% of the time if it meant avoiding the service center the other 99% of the time. And I'm sure a bad update is just a call and a tow away from a fix at a Tesla service center. Unless you're on a road-tri…

You might want to turn off updates during road trips.

How about registering your "garage coordinates" with your car's computer so that it can detect when you're on a road trip and give you the option of installing an update or not? (When you are stopped and have parked the car, of course.)

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#119

Post by bfe »

cylinder wrote: post #19
mrt0mat0 wrote: post #7

It blows my mind that in a country that preaches a free-market economy, the government is preventing a company from selling a superior product. I'm pretty sure people will still buy the car if they want to, and in time, those car companies will go under anyway, but why slow down progress?

Remember that the US is not pro-business, it's corporatist. It's a government that is able to be easily captured by incumbent, monied interests. Starting businesses and operating them on a small level is much easier in other developed nations.

Acting in favor of individual businesses is usually orthogonal or antithetical to acting in favor of the free market.

Big businesses and the politicians who love them often rely heavily on erasing the perception of that difference.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#120

Post by ghaff »

kyrra wrote: post #66
digikata wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This Planet Money episode[1] gives a interesting of the history of autodealers, with some additional info regarding the latest twists that had come up due the fiscal crisis too. [1] http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/12/171814201/episode-...

That's a fairly one-sided view on the situation. Just some random points: * Saturn tried the "no-haggle" new car buying experience. People generally liked this, though Saturn doesn't exist anymore. * "closing a dealer is hard". Dealers have to pay for the land they own. The cars on their lot tend to be bought with money from the bank (a bank really owns the cars). The dealers just have to pay insurance/interest on th…

It's probably worth pointing out as well that some dealers are predominantly or exclusively "no haggle" even when it's not mandated by the manufacturer.

I'm generally sympathetic to the notion that auto manufacturers should be able to sell direct subject to whatever contractual promises they may have made to existing franchisees. That said I'm unconvinced that, from the consumer perspective, there's going to be a huge difference between a luxury brand car dealership network such as those that exist for BMW and Mercedes and Tesla-owned and operated locations that do things like: service, helping to arrange financing, take trade-ins, showroom, offer test drives, etc. Sounds a lot like a dealer to me. As you note, it's really a false dichotomy between manufacturer-operated network on the one hand and an uncontrolled Wild West of franchises on the other.

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