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STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

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Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#111
post #70
post #2

I wonder if we as an industry will continue to practice almost blatant age discrimination as the current generation of engineers grows older. If we continue to obsess over youth, the job market will be remarkably unpleasant 15 years from now.

Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. That doesn't happen. Either it's really a grand conspiracy like some claim or the situation is not so simple. I think it's more likely older people expect to get paid more for their exper…

> Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors.

Who is claiming that first world women are an untapped source of cheap labor? In what field?

> [older people] are less likely to start up their own companies like younger people are because doing so is risky.

Even if true, this is irrelevant. Age discrimination in this context applies to employee hiring.

> They are valuing risk takers

Is "risk taking" a criteria your company applies when looking for talent? None of the startups I've worked with have ever sorted engineering candidates by "risk taking".

> It is the same thing with women. Any sane businessperson would hire people no matter their gender if those people can make them more money, and anyone who is leaving value on the table by being discriminatory despite the lost potential leaves room for their competitors to destroy them.

The crux of your argument is that the market will punish bad behavior. I think this sounds convincing. However, it is a flawed argument. For one thing, the market can't reward new approaches if no-one tries them.

50 years ago you could probably have made the argument that outright discrimination against women and minorities was rewarded by the market. After all, all companies observed similar hiring practices - including the market leaders.

Taking a snapshot of current practices, and claiming they are some sort of epitome "because free market!" is simply a logical fallacy.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#112
post #11

This post is largely about discrimination and uses Brian Acton as a timely centerpiece. The truth is however more complex (IMHO): - Culture matters a lot in hiring. By this I mean a Stanford grad is much more likely to hire another Stanford grad in a field of qualified candidates. This isn't simply a form of nepotism as such. Two grads from the same college will share a larger common cultural base; - The culture the…

If you're seriously looking for people from the same college (or even plural colleges), then yes, you'll face a shortage of candidates.

I just won't care about a problem you've created for yourself.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#113
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing is, more education will enable a good developer to be even better. It's doesn't seem to help a struggling developer in any shape or form. In my (limited) experience, the people who struggled in undergrad run screaming away from any possibility of doing grad school (my experience here is consistent across econ and CS). The people who were good at the field consider grad school because the psychic costs of…

> take a look at the school her or she attended and stop interviewing people from that school, problem solved. This is really bad advice, because much about learning programming is about an individual effort. It has little if anything to do with the school. > If you find a person with an MS who can't pass a simple programming test You actually need more than a simple programming test that solves a single problem. You…

I also agree in doing a black mark against the school however it helps to have a look at (in terms of Masters, PhD) the quality of work within that department / within the graduating year. It's a way to go beyond the marketing fluff in non top-tier schools.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#114
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People of vastly different cultures can easily work together, as long as they aren't assholes.

I don't think it's that simple. At the trivial and obvious level, you need to speak a common language. But even if you're both speaking English, you can communicate much more effectively if you have a shared cultural background that you can both refer to.

that is an extremely macro level of culture that does not explain why there are so few women, hispanics, and african-americans in technology. They aren't that different of a culture. Certainly far less of a cultural difference than all of the H1Bs they're hiring.

You're not getting the point. All of you who keep parroting your master's "cultural fit" line are not seeing the lie for what it is worth. It's not about culture.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#115

Very well written article and I can add some context being in the unhired category of engineers. I graduated from Georgia Tech sometime in the last couple of years with a 3.64 GPA. I know that GPA doesn't mean much but really at Georgia Tech they make you work for it like a dog. I have some projects on GitHub and well I thought companies would come knocking at my door. Boy was I mistaken. So I started applying late i…

I can tell you that sadly accent can have more weight than we all wish it would have. It's a double issue, even if you are interviewing with the most liberal and ethical person who loves you and think you're a great fit but had problem understanding due to heavy accent, it's not in your favor. And even if your accent it's only light, there are sadly still people out there that will even subconsciously prefer the candidate that bad the "better" English. It's sad, but I think it's more of a reason than your actual skills. I go to GT and can vouch anyone who graduated with your GPA is probably very smart and talented. Don't give up! Knowing how to interview is a skill by itself, there are many common mistakes people do that are not related to their skill set. My wife had a heavy Russian accent and spent a year working solely on her English, and interview skills (went to a career coach). From dozens of rejections, she now got 2 offers in one month, and she is almost 40 :-)

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#116

Acq-hires are proof of dysfunction. Companies like Yahoo have talent, but can't recognize it at the bottom because the middle-management filter is so defective. So they buy market-verified talent at a panic price. That's shitty for the individual (well, great for 0.05% of them and shitty for 99.95%) because there's so much noise. The problem is that the VC-funded world is full of soft-skulls who never grew up (some a…

I'll agree with that, but it's dysfunction both in the hiring process and also in the R&D process. It's the middle management filter in both cases. Corporate culture is a big part of this. I worked for a major airline in the '90s and during that time, we had at least 5 initiatives to build online travel sites. Wasteful? Sure, but the winner of that process is a well-known travel site that's thriving today. That particular company had a highly entrepreneurial and competitive structure internally, which had definite downsides, but on the flip side, caused the company to produce some good innovations from within. I went to work for a competitor a few years later and things were completely different there and acqui-hire was the name of the game for that organization.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cultural fit" is just another name for racism, sexism, and ageism. Yeah, all of those things can be culture. Why should it be any less wrong to discriminate based on college attendance than on race? What else is cultural fit? "Sorry, you don't fit our culture of being heterosexual here." We're supposed to be adults. We're supposed to know how to get along and play nicely with others, regardless of how different we a…

> Why should it be any less wrong to discriminate based on college attendance than on race This question can be asked of anything. Why should it be any less wrong to discriminate based on intelligence? Why should it be any less wrong to discriminate on skill set? It isn't so much "wrong" to discriminate on race as it is stupid , because race has nothing to do with most jobs (unless you're interviewing to be the grand…

Meaningless to the point of absurdity.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#118

Interesting article. Whenever an article like this pops up the usual chorus is, there is no skill shortage, just a shortage at the price the employer is willing to pay. Sadly I've seen myself as someone on the hiring side of the table fall into a few of these traps listed in the article. A newly minted Phd, is one type of person that I've found myself having trouble hiring. Same with an newly minted Masters. The reas…

"1) The 10 year developer who has 1 year of experience 10 times over. This is just a junior developer who wants the salary of a senior developer."

Like everything else, that depends on the candidate. A person who has had 10 1-year jobs may have tons of applicable experience and be a better developer than the Loyal Schlub who spent two or three 3-4 year stints doing CRUD (or even proprietary trader front-end) app X. Given the rest of your post, I suspect the issue here isn't that you've had trouble finding good candidates with "10/1" resumes; it's that you simply are selecting them out due to bias.

"2) Its harder to find senior developers, regardless of what you pay. As Joel once said the good developers always have jobs, hence his internship program."

This actually supports the sentiment I expressed in response to your first point. It seems you're looking for an extremely specific and narrow type of resume--one that fits a particular format consisting of long-term, stable employment. You have a bias against other kinds of employees.

"3) the hire bar is, umm..., higher for senior developers as they are expected to do more, mentor, design architecture, etc. This means I'm more picky as to who I hire."

I have yet to see any interview capable of determining whether a person at the level you're talking about is actually capable of delivering on what you require. This last point is something that can only be adequately gauged in the context of your company's business by actually having the person work there, or work on a project there for some time. Companies are different. A person's ability to "be senior" in the way you describe at one company may not translate well, or at all, to another company.

I'm not trying to pick on you or be aggressive. I'm just commenting on a larger narrative--hiring practices in technology just aren't very good. It's not due to any deficiency in intelligence or honesty, either (most of the time, at least, I think). It's just that it's a really hard problem for which there isn't any one good answer.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the rise of "social" coding ala Github, it's now a lot easier to vet a candidate for a development job. PhD is only useful if the core product has a considerable overlap with your PhD thesis. A graduate degree doesn't help, in fact, if the time is invested in "specializing", one may lose out on gaining 2 years worth of core dev experience but I think it really depend on the type of job.

As others have noted, having an advanced degree should be a signal that the candidate is capable of deeply investing themselves into a subject area. The typecasting is ridiculous: just because you have no graduate degree but spent the first 3 years of your career working on, say, an online store, does that disqualify you from working in any other area of software engineering? Github as CV has been debated already. Yo…

I worked 70 hours week. I still had time to do open source. The debate isn't over. You can probably find my Github.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#120
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea. Google X, Facebook AI Lab? I'm struggling with this myself, the solutions (for me) now seem to be: learn something new every year at work (by changing the technologies your employer uses or changing employers), and research in the afternoon.

I did exactly this - did my research after work, when my employer didn't budge in terms of putting on new technologies, or even improving it, I changed. The other move is to do a start-up and work on one's own R&D (how you do it is your call)

The problem is that I'm interested in robotics/AI, which (right now) seems to be a high-investment/low-probability-of-success endeavor.
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