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Nassim Taleb: We should retire the notion of standard deviation

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Re: Nassim Taleb: We should retire the notion of standard deviation

#111
post #68
post #36

I really tried to get through "The Black Swan" and Taleb's writing struck me as so pretentious and self-involved that it made it impossible for me to finish. He strikes me as someone who is so desperate to be important and recognized that an assertion like this doesn't really surprise me.

I started reading that book and I thought he was a genius, but then, right abut the point where he starts bagging on the Uncertainty Principle, I realized that he's actually kind of an idiot. The book does make a good point though.

Maybe I'm the idiot, but I found the book's point to be pretty trivial. "Sometimes unexpected things happen, and people are bad at expecting the unexpected" seems pretty damn trivial to me.

Maybe it's because I think like a programmer rather than a finance guy, but a large portion of what I do on a daily basis is about mitigating risk from the unknown. A programmer who only guards against known risks is going to get his ass handed to him sooner rather than later (these are the sorts of people who use blacklists and regexes to sanitize SQL). A finance guy who only guards against known risks is just playing the averages. My experience with traders is that they tend to be pretty abstracted from reality and like to impose rules and patterns where there are none. I can see why those sorts of people would find Taleb's work groundbreaking.

Taleb's undoubtedly intelligent, but I feel like he woke up one day, decided that he wanted to be a philosopher who brings wisdom to the masses, and built his temple on a mind-searingly obvious principle, which he now proclaims to be his great gift to humanity, for which he should be praised, hallowed be his name. The impression I got off of him was that he considers himself a prophet, imparting a word to the masses that the rest of us are just too stupid to recognize. Gag me.

Re: Nassim Taleb: We should retire the notion of standard deviation

#112
I've been a long time fan of Dr. Nassim Taleb. First book I've read was the one about his time as a day trader and how on the Black Friday market crash, he made a killing and cleared his desk and never had to work again.

There are those that dislike his ideas because it is threatening to their existing assumptions about probability and statistics. He argues that experts and majority of people do not account for the unpredictable but significant impact a single event can have which often shatters the commonly held belief. For example, swans were white until the discovery of black swans in Oceania, too big to fail multi-national corporations going bankrupt like Lehman's brothers and etc.

He's not anti-academic, but he is against teachings in the common academia that is based on naive assumptions that is specifically tailored to serve those that thrives most off the limited quantitative measures, such as market callers, hedge funds selling complicated quantitative algorithm trades, academics seeking fame and fortune by writing the most logical and quantitative paper without questioning any of the tools they are using, it is this hypocrisy and laziness that is apparent and those that try to deny to the point of making ad hominem remarks against a man, who simply observes these things and decides to write it in an entertaining manner (otherwise nobody would give a shit because the topic would be dry without lay man's linguo).

Keep an open mind, a lot of what he says I do find interesting ideas and it has influenced my thinking process quite a bit, however it's no way in anyway, grounds for cracking jokes or ridicule, in fact when I read some of the comments here, it's a bit shameful. We should be embracing new ideas in order to explore them, regardless of who the explosive nature of the claim, because the black swan event is very real and is not captured or understood completely by our current set of statistical tools and methodology based on questionable assumptions about how the real world operates. For example, 1/2500 chance is not what we really think it means in the real world because black swan events are more common than we think, a percentage probability do not fully reflect it's frequency and the magnitude of it's event.

Note the fall of crime rates in the United States following a decision to legalize abortion, economists and experts would come on television and bring up all sorts of random theories and ideas but little did they realize it was a chain effect from a court ruling passed decades ago until two economists came out with a paper that was ridiculed because it suggested that 'killing babies from poor neighbourhoods = lower crime rate' where most poor neighbourhoods is occupied by African Americans. Because such idea was earthshakingly controversial and still denied even to this day. Because Galileo claimed the earth was round instead of flat, he was executed. This is simply the nature of our world, almost all part of life, there exists a hierarchy that people simply do not ask questions either due to blind trust or the fear of reprisal.

Re: Nassim Taleb: We should retire the notion of standard deviation

#113
post #78

So first about the article: >>The notion of standard deviation has confused hordes of scientists What an assertion! It also proved to be very useful for hordes of scientists... what about some examples of confused scientists ? >>There is no scientific reason to use it in statistical investigations in the age of the computer As someone who uses it daily I am eagerly awaiting his argument. >>Say someone just asked you…

>> The notion of standard deviation has confused hordes of scientists > What an assertion! It also proved to be very useful for hordes of scientists... what about some examples of confused scientists ? He is exaggerating, for sure. But the point is valid: the mean average deviation (MAD) is often very different than the standard deviation (STD), and the MAD is more intuitive, it has a natural geometrical interpretati…

I'm relieved to hear from others who didn't love his book, now I don't feel so left out. I checked out Black Swan from the library a while back. It seemed like Taleb's smug prose and mudslinging were writing a check his evidence couldn't cash, but I couldn't stand more then the first 50 pages, so I never got to find out. My girlfriend read it all of it and sort of gave me the cliff notes; she thought I wasn't missing much.

If I ever met anyone in real life who was as impressed by his book as as much as the inexplicably fawning blogs and reviews I have seen, I would give it another try, but I sorta feel like I've been had. At least it was a library book, so I didn't give him 12 bucks.

Anybody here love his stuff, wanna convince me to try again?

Re: Nassim Taleb: We should retire the notion of standard deviation

#114
post #76

You gotta love the acronyms: STD versus MAD! Taleb is definitely mad but his use of the MAD acronym (mean absolute deviation) is actually correct. However the STD acronym (all caps) refers to "sexually transmitted disease" and not generally used for "standard deviation". Most people use SD, Stdev, StDev or sigma. Once again his ability to coin new terminology outstrips his ability to form coherent ideas that are anyt…

STD is also an obsolete term. Epidemiology, Medicine etc. most often now refer to them as STIs, or Sexually Transmitted Infections.

The reasoning for this is that many sexually transmitted infections can be acquired, passed on to others, etc. without causing any clinical symptoms. See: HPV, among others.

Re: Nassim Taleb: We should retire the notion of standard deviation

#115

NNT is my intellectual superhero but the amount of hate he gets is tremendous. Please understand that NNT's biggest issues are not so much with the way statistical models are applied to economics and finance, but how social scientists sometimes feel compelled to apply them to social fields as well, which is plain unscientific, dumb, and mostly disastrous. So when you bear down on his arguments, please keep this conte…

Among other things, I've seen way more appalling applications of statistics in finance and economics than I have in social science.

Also, the assertion in your post that the misapplication of statistical models in social science is "disastrous" but somehow giving finance a pass? You've got to be kidding me.

Re: Nassim Taleb: We should retire the notion of standard deviation

#116
post #74

So first about the article: >>The notion of standard deviation has confused hordes of scientists What an assertion! It also proved to be very useful for hordes of scientists... what about some examples of confused scientists ? >>There is no scientific reason to use it in statistical investigations in the age of the computer As someone who uses it daily I am eagerly awaiting his argument. >>Say someone just asked you…

You conveniently leave out the reasonable portions of his article. I read your comment before I read the article, and guess what, you have cherry picked specific parts of the article such that Taleb comes off as stupid. It took me ten seconds to figure out what 'Goldstein and Taleb' refers to: http://www-stat.wharton.upenn.edu/~steele/Courses/434/434Con... http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=970480 He…

>He specifies that SD is reasonable as a mathematical tool, but not for inference about society, finance, etc.

Yes, and as SD is widely used in those so this is quite a bold statement to make an Taleb doesn't give one example of things going wrong with it and his proposal working better. This observation is also wrong and I pointed out some areas where standard deviation is useful.

>Your comment appears to have an agenda or ideology underlying it.

Yes it's ideology of calling people out when they assert incorrect things in condescending tone without any arguments while insulting whole groups of scientists and statisticians.

>That is pretty much what his entire article is about: taking squares may not be the best idea universally.

No, article isn't about it. It was in my comment. Taleb doesn't mention how MAD works better than SD in some situations and why or why it should be substituted. Taleb doesn't point one situation when MAD works better than SD (I pointed out some where SD works better than MAD) he also doesn't address obvious problems which such substitutions create. Heck, he doesn't even discuss how nature of SD is different than MAD, he just says they are different and the latter is more applicable for "real life". Also he doesn't argue that MAD is sometimes more useful than SD. He argues that the latter should be disposed of outside some very narrow theoretical applications.

Re: Nassim Taleb: We should retire the notion of standard deviation

#118

This article is based on paper Taleb published in 2007. If you want to test yourself, submit yourself to experiment in page 3: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=970480

A stock (or a fund) has an average return of 0%. It moves on average 1% a day in absolute value; the average up move is 1% and the average down move is 1%. How does that yield an average return of 0%?

It goes up a little more often than it goes down?

Re: Nassim Taleb: We should retire the notion of standard deviation

#119
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did make a lot of money in 2008 as well. That is completely aside from the fact that his points would be valid regardless of how successful his individual investments have been. I am not sure what would convince you otherwise though, since it seems like you have made up your mind already. Please loosen up on the snark.

There is no snark in my post: I am outright calling Taleb a false prophet who is guilty of exactly the things he criticizes in Fooled by Randomness. And yes, I've seen a lot of claims of various other successes of Taleb, with a lack of any actual citations or proof at all: His own fund folded after yielding mediocre returns, and then he started consulting for a fund that seems to demonstrate a tremendous amount of bl…

I think that you may be missing the point of Fooled by Randomness. The point is knowing whether your success came from luck, skill, or both. It also shined a light on people who took high-probability, "sure bets" (selling out-of-the-money options) that paid off most of the time but would eventually bankrupt them if the stock price jumped.

Re: Nassim Taleb: We should retire the notion of standard deviation

#120
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The notion of standard deviation has confused hordes of scientists > What an assertion! It also proved to be very useful for hordes of scientists... what about some examples of confused scientists ? He is exaggerating, for sure. But the point is valid: the mean average deviation (MAD) is often very different than the standard deviation (STD), and the MAD is more intuitive, it has a natural geometrical interpretati…

the MAD is more intuitive Which one, the mean average deviation or the median average deviation?

I think the A is for absolute (or it wouldn't make much sense as a measure of dispersion)
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