Workers on Samsung factory site battle police in Vietnam • Hacker News Board

Re: Workers on Samsung factory site battle police in Vietnam

#111

Post by virmundi » Thu, Jan 09, 2014, 5:43 PM UTC

hershel wrote: post #64

virmundi wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wars and a nanny-state. Probably before that hits, automation for most of the product. Eventually we will need very few people to produce any part of the product. We will automate resource extraction. Automate resource delivery. Automate resource refinement. Etc. So this leaves us with a large population that has little point in the current economic system. So we'll get higher unemployment globally. Historically this…

Another option : the haves will offer a tiny share of the economy(which with optimized technology might suffice for a basic standard of living) and zero influence to the have nots and drown them with escapism ,all controlled from above by a strong totalitarian state. Sound familiar ? if it works so far, why won't it work further on ?

I don't think escapism actually escapes anything. The US welfare state is escapism from a certain view point. However, the people in it are pretty much locked in place by the system. They are also locked out of "good places". I conjecture this is what causes the crime rate among that same population. They see little opportunity to improve their lot by any means other than violence.

Re: Workers on Samsung factory site battle police in Vietnam

#112

Post by exodust » Thu, Jan 09, 2014, 5:44 PM UTC

gabriel34 wrote: post #95

theorique wrote: post #22

Hope this doesn't push the release date forward. (edit: Irony, people. Irony.)

Without clues such as facial expression, tone of voice and knowing who is it that you are talking to irony is indistinguishable from a normal statement. You could try to exaggerate to the point that it would be ridiculous for a sane person to assume you are serious, but it's not reliable. Avoid Irony/Sarcasm on the internet.

Avoid what now?

Leave internet irony and sarcasm alone!

We are not robots until proven otherwise by facial expressions and other physical properties.

Wait, is your post sarcasm? I know the one before the one before was, but I thought that was obvious.

Meanwhile, men attack scooters.

Re: Workers on Samsung factory site battle police in Vietnam

#113

Post by manachar » Thu, Jan 09, 2014, 5:48 PM UTC

GigabyteCoin wrote: post #96

I just watched the grapes of wrath last night for the first time. Amazing movie. It was released in 1940, just a year after the book. I guess some things will never change, unfortunately. I hope someone gives these poor workers the decent wages and decent lives they deserve, and soon.

> I guess some things will never change, unfortunately.

I feel this way too sometimes, but if you step back you realize things change all the time. In America people banded together into worker's unions which fought tooth and nail to be treated fairly. Unions in America clearly have some shortcomings, but it did manage to move the needle from Grapes of Wrath style living to a more equitable and humane existence for workers.

Clearly these workers (and elsewhere in Asia) are starting to organize. Perhaps they too can enjoy a larger portion of the fruits of their labour.

Of course, the downside of constant change is things can get worse too and it's often very difficult to know which direction makes things better and which direction will makes things worse. Indeed, most won't even agree on what is better and what is worse.

Re: Workers on Samsung factory site battle police in Vietnam

#114

Post by wutbrodo » Thu, Jan 09, 2014, 6:00 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #56

llamataboot wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the wonderful world of libertarian thought. Where sweatshops to make cheap shit for rich countries is a win-win.

> Hell, even Paul Krugman doesn't label the issue as black and white. As if Paul Krugman is the pinnacle of radical thought on the issue? He is a Keynesian -- which I guess counts for something like "far left" in the US.

In a conversation-oriented forum like this, the context of a remark is important. It was in response to a claim that this was some sort of libertarian fantasy, not radical thinking overall. I think it's pretty safe to say Krugman is not a radical libertarian (hence the "even Paul Krugman").

Re: Workers on Samsung factory site battle police in Vietnam

#115

Post by hershel » Thu, Jan 09, 2014, 6:36 PM UTC

virmundi wrote: post #111

hershel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another option : the haves will offer a tiny share of the economy(which with optimized technology might suffice for a basic standard of living) and zero influence to the have nots and drown them with escapism ,all controlled from above by a strong totalitarian state. Sound familiar ? if it works so far, why won't it work further on ?

I don't think escapism actually escapes anything. The US welfare state is escapism from a certain view point. However, the people in it are pretty much locked in place by the system. They are also locked out of "good places". I conjecture this is what causes the crime rate among that same population. They see little opportunity to improve their lot by any means other than violence.

There's some research[1] showing that video game escapism reduce crime. Other research show that porn reduces sexual crimes.

Add to that the free use of marijuana (which generally decreases motivation ) , the better capabilities of police enforcing crimes, the possible growing acceptance of unemployment in an automated society, you'll see even further reductions.

[1]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/111191-Less-Crime-...

Re: Workers on Samsung factory site battle police in Vietnam

#116

Post by Mikeb85 » Thu, Jan 09, 2014, 6:42 PM UTC

ForHackernews wrote: post #62

Mikeb85 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at how far China has progressed. It has nothing to do with Libertarianism, and everything to do with Economics...

Surely it must be possible to have economic development in poor countries without sweatshop-level exploitation.

For sure it might be possible, but historically it hasn't happened. Furthermore, there are still, to this day, occupations in the West which have deplorable working conditions. For instance, construction, mining and oil field work - where workers are outside in conditions as cold as -40 degrees, and work 12-16 hour days for 2-3 weeks strait without days off...

Re: Workers on Samsung factory site battle police in Vietnam

#117

Post by chmike » Thu, Jan 09, 2014, 6:59 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #81

sanoli wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably true. I wonder why nobody ever counts Africa in these discussions. It's always "but what about when all the poor Asian workers start to earn higher wages and there are no more cheap countries left?".

As @smoorman1024 stated, too much political instability in much of Africa. It's true that some countries are stable, but (e.g.) being next to an unstable country doesn't affect the risk in a positive direction.

Apparently things are changing. Compare Asia from 1975 and today. It doesn't take long for such a profund change. If I was an investor, I would think that now is the right time to start looking at this continent. Chiniese already do. Many africans are highly educated but lack opportunities to put this competence in application. This continent is full of unexploited opportunities.

Re: Workers on Samsung factory site battle police in Vietnam

#118

Post by davidw » Thu, Jan 09, 2014, 7:56 PM UTC

JonnieCache wrote: post #61

davidw wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then we should probably do what we can to help the worst off in the economy, whether they've lost their jobs due to new technology, moving factories, or whatever, rather than trying to nail the factories down to one particular place.

>help the worst off in the economy The problem with this is, the "factory owners" of the world run a political machine which they use to prevent that from happening, claiming it prevents them from building more factories. They use the same political machine to establish the moral goodness of continued factory building as axiomatic. This makes everything rather complicated.

> the "factory owners" of the world run a political machine

Well, yes and no. The view I espoused was pretty similar to what Warren Buffet says, and that guy has owned a factory or two in his day. Even in the US, which has less government, there are a number of programs for those who don't have much. Perhaps you'd like to see more - fair enough - but the exact level of support is open for debate, isn't it? I don't think we'll ever agree on precisely what it should consist of. The Nordic states seem to work pretty well with more government. Probably depends on a lot of factors...

So I don't think there's any big cabal, really.

Re: Workers on Samsung factory site battle police in Vietnam

#119

Post by davidw » Thu, Jan 09, 2014, 7:59 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #87

davidw wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economy is not a zero-sum game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

Moving plants is not what the link you are linking to talks about. And in fact, what you are linking to is a right-wing attack on very legitimate economic ideas. The introduction of the 40-hour week did increase employment, and further reduction of work weeks would indeed increase the number of people employed (as we see already: all job growth in the U.S. currently is full-time jobs being converted into multiple par…

If the economy were zero-sum, we would be far poorer today, with 7 billion people, than 200 years ago, when there were only 1 billion people, right?

I don't believe in things like "the market will sort everything out", by the way. There are winners and losers, and I think society has some duty to help take care of those who get the short end of the stick. But I don't think "don't let the factories move" is the right way to help those people, long term.

Re: Workers on Samsung factory site battle police in Vietnam

#120

Post by JonnieCache » Thu, Jan 09, 2014, 8:38 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #118

JonnieCache wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>help the worst off in the economy The problem with this is, the "factory owners" of the world run a political machine which they use to prevent that from happening, claiming it prevents them from building more factories. They use the same political machine to establish the moral goodness of continued factory building as axiomatic. This makes everything rather complicated.

> the "factory owners" of the world run a political machine Well, yes and no. The view I espoused was pretty similar to what Warren Buffet says, and that guy has owned a factory or two in his day. Even in the US, which has less government, there are a number of programs for those who don't have much. Perhaps you'd like to see more - fair enough - but the exact level of support is open for debate, isn't it? I don't th…

There doesn't need to be a cabal. But then I suppose that means "run," "use" and "machine" were pretty poor word choices.

"There exists a System, in which we are all but cogs" doesn't seem a very useful way of analysing the world, however correct we might suspect it is. Maybe I should try harder.