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Teen Reported to Police After Finding Security Hole in Website

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Re: Teen Reported to Police After Finding Security Hole in Website

#111
post #68

I was put into isolation for three weeks during high school when I was found to be hacking my way through the network. In reality I had found access to the remote server through the winword.exe open dialog that didn't require passwords and was displaying in the list of network drives, but didn't in explorer. Because I found this, I was able to find the RM (Research Machines) Management Console and use a teachers (act…

> I had found access to the remote server [...]. I was able to find the [...] Management Console and use a teachers [...] password [...] create a hidden admin user [...]. Through this I could [...] control every PC in the school. And this is why we can't have nice things. Admins at The Age (in this case) see someone trying to "report" a vulnerability and instantly jump to the conclusion that the user is someone like…

I don't know if it is the times that have changed, or it's just that old stories were all romantic, but I get the feeling that nowdays IT staff has no sense of humour or understanding of the concept of having (creative) fun.

> Once you start trying to guess passwords and modifying state to add backdoors (seriously!?), you have to reasonably expect the rest of us to try to resist and suppress you, by law enforcement if necessary.

In this setting (a school) I'd reasonably expect the "rest of you" to play the game, not to swing the legal hammer. If your system is so easily compromised, you should feel professional shame and try to attone, not reach for law enforcement and general grown-up dullness. Especially given that this school, one would hope that everything there, including the computer infrastructure, should be a part of learning experience, as long as no one gets seriously hurt.

BTW. in my high school, the school server and computer rooms were managed by students, not teachers or any hired staff. Everything worked well most of the time, and at the same time every generation of students was busy putting their backdoors everywhere, while searching and removing ones left by their predecessors. It was fun, and we learned a lot.

Re: Teen Reported to Police After Finding Security Hole in Website

#112
post #65
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the kid didn't log into the website and make some postings to their internal communication systems (forums, email listings, etc). He attempted to contact them through official channels but was ignored. After that, he went to the local news agency. This is totally different.

OK, so he went into your room, you weren't there, and he came back to knock on the door to let you know he went to your room to find you. It's close enough. Edit: I just want to clarify that I don't think the kid should be prosecuted, but I also don't like the fact that he went as far as to check for sensitive information inside of their system.

It would be like a passerby finding your door continuously wide open, stepping into your foyer and shouting to let you know, you weren't there or didn't respond, so he told your neighbor to tell you. Then you call the police because of trespassing.

Re: Teen Reported to Police After Finding Security Hole in Website

#113
post #80
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These attitudes haven't changed much since 1990 at least. Why would they? A blatant oversight is a sign of incompetence and by making such incompetence public, you're threatening their job security. Why would anyone react positively? You're better off making the disclosure anonymously.

> You're better off making the disclosure anonymously. When the info comes from an anonymous source they can't take their frustration out on the messenger. (Instead of thanking the messenger as they should.) I don't get why these hackers often give up their anonymity.

> I don't get why these hackers often give up their anonymity.

My guess is that it's because they're hackers, and they don't expect that the other side consist mostly of boring incompetents with zero sense of humour or professional pride. Geez, if I were to ever be responsible for ITSEC in a school, I'd take such hacker for a beer and dare him to try and break some more stuff. The state of mind which leads people to prosecute hackers is a very sad one.

Re: Teen Reported to Police After Finding Security Hole in Website

#114
post #25

(DEVIL'S ADVOCATE) Am I allowed to go to businesses and try to pick the locks, look inside, and then report to the business owner that their lock was pickable? Well... yes, but I'd probably be reported to police. Websites, like locks, aren't bullet proof. How many web applications out there don't have a security flaw somewhere? Doing penetration tests on unwilling victims is risky. Trying to break wifi, company intra…

More like you're depositing checks into an ATM machine, then notice there's a keypad to open and you guess 1234 and to your surprise, you've found a lot of people's info. Or if you saw that it had a lock but the hinge was expose and pretty loose, and hey, you flicked it with you finger and it fell off.

Physical-virtual analogies are difficult.

Re: Teen Reported to Police After Finding Security Hole in Website

#115
While I agree that the websites response and the response of many organizations is overly harsh and draconian in situations like these, if the teen in the story did use SQLi to exfiltrate 500 records then he crossed the line. He should have just shown that the vuln existed without pulling customer data. If the organization pushed back and said it didn't see a problem, then he could offer to write a proof of concept to pull that data, but to just go from discovery to pulling credit card data is a bad move on his part.

Re: Teen Reported to Police After Finding Security Hole in Website

#116
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you see that the paper gave them the kid's info? All I see is he contacted them directly, and no indication that the followup from the paper is where they got his info.

>When The Age called the Transportation Department for comment, it reported Rogers to the police. Last sentence in the third paragraph.

That doesn't say if the paper gave the department Roger's info, or if they thought the right way to react to the publicity from the paper was to hand information they already had over to the police.

Re: Teen Reported to Police After Finding Security Hole in Website

#117
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's an anonymous email? Even Tor is subject to tracking if the endpoint IPs are monitored [1]. The issue of anonymous disclosure is a real issue if you don't Why do you think Wikileaks was such a big/new deal? [1] http://www.forbes.com/sites/runasandvik/2013/12/18/harvard-s...

Lol, you've never opened a gmail account using fake data and sent from there? Yahoo? Hotmail? The FBI will help your sys admin investigate a bomb threat, obviously. Reporting a security hole will unlikely draw their interest. Yes, just using a fake gmail account is tracable without more protections (like correctly accessing Tor). Again, I doubt the FBI is going to investigate. But hey, I'm all for paranoia and extra…

If what you're reporting is significant enough to threaten the livelihood or reputation of people important enough, they can and will find a way to trace you via your fingerprints/IPs … or do you think Google won't simply roll over on you when they get a subpoena/warrant?

Re: Teen Reported to Police After Finding Security Hole in Website

#118
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the Senior Thesis presentations at my college last year was someone working on a context spell-checker. I don't know if his demo could suggest a better word, but it would highlight words that seemed wrong. It was based off of Google's NGrams, I think he used 3-grams, and checked to see how frequently a word showed up between the two words next to it. The problem with that was it required a HUGE amount of data.…

Average vocabulary isn't going to require using that massive a set of 3-grams though. If we started with homophones ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophone#English ) that would seem to make a large difference; add in ability to easily get a definition (or list of synonyms) for words/phrases (like in Google Translate). Google suggest already does a lot of what is required.

Google also has a ton of computing power and disk space...

That said, homophones and homonyms only would make the 3-gram sets smaller, but it would only detect homophones and homonyms being used incorrectly. I could still use a word incorrectly, and if I'm banking on that software to detect my mistakes it wouldn't.

Re: Teen Reported to Police After Finding Security Hole in Website

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that your reply is the one that's absurd. Why is the quote you mentioned unreasonable?

Because "Being white hat gets you in trouble more often than not." is so obviously untrue to anybody with even the vaguest relation to the industry. It implies that more than 50% of the time, when you disclose a vulnerability responsibly you get in trouble. When it's more likely much much less than 0.1% of the time. People getting in trouble for reporting vulnerabilities is highly rare. Show me 100 cases of it, and I…

Most of the industry wouldn't characterize themselves as "white hat" just ask them and they will say their more "gray hat" then white hat.

At least in private anyway if you ask them in public their force to keep up appearances.

Now we can argue about the percentages all day but you have to agree being "gray hat" and keeping the power on your side by not exposing your identity is the safer way to go about it unless you want bragging rights which is whole other level of psychology.

I'm not after the attention I'd rather be the guy who nobody notices.

Re: Teen Reported to Police After Finding Security Hole in Website

#120
I think the difference lies in finding the security hole and testing the security hole. In most of the cases that the hacker is persecuted, the hacker has tested the hole, i.e. downloaded data illegally.

If the hacker simply notified the people responsible before retrieving any data, I don't think that the hacker would be persecuted.

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