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Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

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Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#111

Post by rwl »

carbocation wrote: post #39

How would minimum basic income free us from a welfare state? What happens when your $50,000 in medical bills is greater than your $27,000 in annual income (or whatever it happens to be), and you elected not to purchase insurance with your money? Serious question, not meant at a dig against this proposal, because I am genuinely curious as to how it would be handled.

Yes, I have a similar question. One of the major reasons to have social programs that buy things like health insurance is that governments have a lot more bargaining power than individuals (up to and including the legal authority to set price caps). In the case of healthcare, governments can get the same coverage and care much cheaper per capita than individuals could if they purchased it on their own. Giving individuals a basic income does not give them this bargaining power, so doesn't that mean that either (a) there will still be a need for social welfare programs for things like healthcare, even with the basic income; or (b) the basic income level must be much higher per capita than what the government would spend on these programs? I think I am probably missing something here, so I'd appreciate it if someone would explain this.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#112

Post by intopieces »

3am wrote: post #78

And when they spend their money stupidly and don't have enough money for health care or food, we let them die on the street, right? Or we let private charities cover the gap. But when they don't, we let them die on the street? And if we don't let them die on the street, we find ourselves back where we started, in need of a social insurance safety net for basic necessities.

I don't think single payer health care and this proposal are mutually exclusive. Additionally, the proposal behind this link stipulates that $3k be spent on healthcare, which could easily be implemented by a voucher system.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#113

Post by yummyfajitas »

tghw wrote: post #33
cobrausn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

The one real world example we have, of Dauphin, suggests this is not the case at all. A final report was never issued, but Dr. Evelyn Forget conducted an analysis of the program in 2009 which was published in 2011. She found that only new mothers and teenagers worked substantially less. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less becaus…

Everyone cites the same wikipedia article and news reporter. Where is the actual data on this?

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#114

Post by dragonwriter »

Roboprog wrote: post #103

How about the idea of actually hiring people, rather than handing out money? As in, the employer of last resort hires people to clean and fix roads and parks, etc. Or perhaps in some cases, being paid to go to school or doing basic research in fields deemed to be relevant at the time? (even if it means you do research for a couple of years for low pay, then bail out) There are enough things in the commons that need d…

> How about the idea of actually hiring people, rather than handing out money?

I think the thing behind the increasing popularity of basic income is that we live in a world in which capital is increasingly important, and the fundamental idea of wage labor as the main source of income is breaking down. Creating make-work government wage-slaves is not a solution to this problem; creating a tax-and-general-benefit structure which amounts to an assessment on those making the most from the commons that is redistributed on an equal basis, OTOH, is.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#115

Post by jasonlfunk »

carbocation wrote: post #65
pinaceae wrote: post #60

As a European we are bit further down that path than the US. I assume most of the readers here are "wealthy", would not need basic guaranteed income. So let me explain why this is a good idea from a rich man's perspective. You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. That's it. Behind all the nice language this is what it boils down to. It is paying off poor…

From the optimist's view, think how many people whose lives are being spent working at Walmart or McDonald's who could instead be at home developing skills they are actually interested in (which school does a poor job of teaching), such as programming or sculpture, etc. Imagine the entrepreneurs who might feel freed to give business a chance, rather than feeling that they can't quit their day jobs? It would be a gran…

From the pessimistic point of view, why would anyone choose to work a crappy job at Walmart or McDonalds when the government would give them the same money without having to do anything.

Walmart and McDonalds (and everyone else) would therefore either go out of business or raise their wages. Raising their wages would increase the price of their goods. Increasing prices of goods would increase the cost of living which would increase the poverty level which would increase the minimum guaranteed income.

It's an inflationary cycle that would be very hard to avoid.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#116

Post by wallawe »

Until the point where we decide that The problem is, in essence, all you are doing is disincentivizing one person to work by paying them with another person who has chosen to work. Money is the ultimate incentive. Not to mentioned the effects on the overall economy. What do you think happens when everyone has more money to spend? Prices go up, and your 5k/month becomes worth what 2k was a few years ago.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#117

Post by dragonwriter »

cobrausn wrote: post #52
njharman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to get an education to seek greater opportunities? That, "make mo money", is the poorest and most cynical incentive to "get an education". Education is it's own reward. Not everyone desires/benefits from going into debt for a piece of paper. People should be free (by having basic income) to choose their own education (or not at all). And not be forced into becoming fuel for the economic machine.

But by providing them a minimum income, you basically make them into fuel for the economic machine - a consumer with no viable skills. And the vital years for gaining these skills are full of distractions, made all the easier to acquire by a basic income.

> But by providing them a minimum income, you basically make them into fuel for the economic machine - a consumer with no viable skills.

No, by providing them with a minimum income, you make them into a someone who has the freedom to expend resources to acquire new skills as their existing skills become less relevant, rather than someone chained to their current situation.

They may choose to be satisfied with their current situation, but we'd need a lot more productivity from a small slice of the population before the completely unskilled would likely to choose to do so. Under a basic income system, the marginal benefit of additional effort (and, thus, purely financial motivation) is greater than in the status quo system for people who would otherwise be beneficiaries of means-tested social support programs.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#118

Post by randallsquared »

swalkergibson wrote: post #14
peterdundi wrote: post #9

This is unpopular here, but I really believe that if you can't provide for yourself financially there is something seriously wrong with you, and I don't think treating you like a child is unreasonable. Beyond washing and feeding yourself, getting an income is pretty much adulthood 101.

If someone has something seriously wrong with them, do you believe that degrading them further by "treating them like children" is going to effect the outcome you desire?

Treating children like children might not better help them learn to be adults, either... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_Children_Seriously

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#119

Post by yummyfajitas »

rayiner wrote: post #51
lelandbatey wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once people reach a livable income, do they totally stop learning, inventing, or creating? I know I don't, and I know other people I see with financial security don't just "stop" either. Because of that, I believe it's at least worth a try.

No, of course not. But the idea that minimum income would cause everyone to just quit their jobs is predicated on the presumption that the poor are morally inferior. Thus, analogies to what middle and upper class people do once they reach a certain level of income are irrelevant, because those people are not morally inferior. You might see a middle class person leave his comfortable line engineer job to get an MBA or…

No, it's simply predicated on the idea of diminishing marginal utility. The only reason it's more of a potential problem for the poor than the rich is because a concave function has a negative second derivative. Seriously, make up any concave function and compute marginal utility before and after a basic income for the rich and poor alike.

It's also a concern given that the poor already do sit on their ass and eat mcdonald's all day. Most poor don't work and aren't looking for a job.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#120

Post by Roboprog »

venomsnake wrote: post #107
Roboprog wrote: post #103

How about the idea of actually hiring people, rather than handing out money? As in, the employer of last resort hires people to clean and fix roads and parks, etc. Or perhaps in some cases, being paid to go to school or doing basic research in fields deemed to be relevant at the time? (even if it means you do research for a couple of years for low pay, then bail out) There are enough things in the commons that need d…

Be careful. You are moving into Keynes heresy territory. The imperial inquisition (aka the very serious people) may want to have a word with you.

Am I the only one who caught the part about the regressive tax on the middle class ($25 - $50 K income range) to pay for the hand out???

Gotta love uncle Milty (Friedman) and his boys.

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