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Center of the universe

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Re: Center of the universe

#111

Post by moocowduckquack »

paxcoder wrote: post #105
etjossem wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please give some thought to whether you might be intolerant before blaming your reaction on others. The specific things that "turn your stomach" here are a) men enjoying the admiration of other men, b) some commenters saying (a) was beautifully written, and c) further discussion of sexuality in the HN comments. You can't articulate why those three things bother you, but I am going to guess it's because you're not com…

I'm not a gay supporter, but my "discomfort" is not the reason I'm this shocked. Certainly my morality influences how I view things. But I'd likewise be sickened by seduction of an innocent person of the same sex. What disturbs me in this story is the described hypnotism. The snake almost manipulated the guy who is clear as day about having not one bit of interest in the same sex. To make him strip is brain washing.…

"Now imagine that someone comments on the survival story of this kind that she wrote using words like "wonderful". Is that a normal reaction?"

FFS. No-one is saying that this guy meeting a serial killer was wonderful. They are saying that the writing is.

Re: Center of the universe

#112

Post by Tomis02 »

cam4er wrote: post #25
pudakai wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In retrospect, I'm pretty convinced he was going to try to get me to undress myself at his escalating suggestion w/out him ever touching me. He was extremely careful about not touching, "accidentally" brushing, etc, and keeping out of my personal space. I realize now that this was a survival mechanism for him, as if the spell were broken by some wrong move, he really could have gotten hurt badly in this sort of situa…

So did you ever get to enjoy sex with a guy after that? Seems with the popularity of sites like chatroulette and cam4 more and more guys are either secretly or openingly experimenting with their curious sides. *Why is this getting downvoted are hacker newers homophobic? The author notes how much the encounter excited him and how he thought about how it excited him throughout the years. I don't see this being an unrea…

You're banned mate.

Re: Center of the universe

#113

Post by mistercow »

hosh wrote: post #106
mistercow wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cialdini has a different take on it in his analysis, which hangs this on a much lower level tendency that cannot be easily overcome by education - consistency pressure. The idea is that the prospect of being perceived as wishy-washy is so devastating socially, that we have evolved to actually change our self-image and our beliefs to reflect our actions and words. There's a scary amount of evidence for this effect. Th…

The "devastating socially" is itself, a mask. That particular reaction relates to fears of rejection. Fears of rejection are internal experiences. Being smarter makes this effect worse, usually because someone who is smart (or likes to see themselves as smart) and likes to argue, are typically disconnected with their emotions, not because they put argue themselves into a corner. They seek social acceptance by being r…

The problem is that evolutionary causes often don't link cleanly to psychological causes. The evolutionary reason that I like things that taste sweet is that back when most of my ancestors lived, sweet usually meant "calories", and not getting enough calories was a more pressing threat than diabetes or cavities. But no matter how deeply I internalize the fact that this reasoning is obsolete, that calories are bountiful, and that my best strategy is to eat a well rounded diet, I'm still going to enjoy sweet things.

The same problem comes up when you talk about psychology. Yes, the evolutionary cause for consistency pressure is to prevent rejection, as rejection could easily lead to death for early humans. But that does not mean that the psychological basis for consistency pressure is fear of rejection. High level psychological phenomena are a beautiful solution for an ever-changing environment, but with relatively constant factors (like rejection -> death), hardwired instincts are far more reliable.

That doesn't mean that fear of rejection as a high level phenomenon doesn't also exist. There's no optimizing flag in our brains that says "If there's an instinct to handle environmental factor X, ignore X while adapting". But those high level phenomena do not motivate our instincts.

So given the universality of consistency as a need during most of our evolution, and the apparent universality of consistency bias as a flaw in human reasoning, I would give a very low prior to it being something you could reprogram by "digging it up by the roots". Rather, overcoming consistency bias is likely to require high level compensation techniques.

Re: Center of the universe

#115

Post by salemh »

danbmil99 wrote: post #68
westicle wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people seem to have an almost super-human level of charisma/ability to influence others (there is probably a D&D reference to be made here). Certainly the trope is common in fiction. See: The Mentalist (both the protagonist and antagonist share this ability) and several Agatha Christie novels with similar storylines. This guy sounds like a real-life Red John; able to subtly re-wire people's thinking so that they…

> Some people seem to have an almost super-human level of charisma/ability to influence others I think most people are completely unaware of how true this is. As students and tech geeks, we've all probably met someone whose talents seemed otherworldly -- mastery of Quantum math, able to punch out code like Notch, that sort of natural intellectual athleticism that seems like something they must have just been born wit…

There is an amount of fair criticism on the subject, but it has made sense (in my opinion), to equate these individuals as being very high in emotional intelligence / awareness of self, others, and the perceptions of themselves, by others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence

Re: Center of the universe

#116

Post by hosh »

mistercow wrote: post #113
hosh wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "devastating socially" is itself, a mask. That particular reaction relates to fears of rejection. Fears of rejection are internal experiences. Being smarter makes this effect worse, usually because someone who is smart (or likes to see themselves as smart) and likes to argue, are typically disconnected with their emotions, not because they put argue themselves into a corner. They seek social acceptance by being r…

The problem is that evolutionary causes often don't link cleanly to psychological causes. The evolutionary reason that I like things that taste sweet is that back when most of my ancestors lived, sweet usually meant "calories", and not getting enough calories was a more pressing threat than diabetes or cavities. But no matter how deeply I internalize the fact that this reasoning is obsolete, that calories are bountif…

Linking evolutionary causes to psychological causes is interesting if that is what you are studying. However, knowledge of such link does not actually give you emotional skills. Those skill require awareness and practice. It might be enhanced with a knowledge of links between evolutionary causes and psychology -- or knowledge of psychology for that matter -- but it is not necessary when actually exercising the skill.

It doesn't matter how much you know or don't know about rejection. What matters more is how you feel about rejection and your skills at working with emotions.

In any case, I suspect what you are doing in writing that response is exactly the process I had described: the use of intelligence and knowledge to avoid actually being aware of what you are feeling and underlying emotional currents.

Digging up the roots work. There's a little bit more to it than that. However, I don't have an interest in convincing you that it works. :-)

Re: Center of the universe

#117

Post by Bulkington »

hosh wrote: post #106
mistercow wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cialdini has a different take on it in his analysis, which hangs this on a much lower level tendency that cannot be easily overcome by education - consistency pressure. The idea is that the prospect of being perceived as wishy-washy is so devastating socially, that we have evolved to actually change our self-image and our beliefs to reflect our actions and words. There's a scary amount of evidence for this effect. Th…

The "devastating socially" is itself, a mask. That particular reaction relates to fears of rejection. Fears of rejection are internal experiences. Being smarter makes this effect worse, usually because someone who is smart (or likes to see themselves as smart) and likes to argue, are typically disconnected with their emotions, not because they put argue themselves into a corner. They seek social acceptance by being r…

Granted the author was a sad drunk, and perhaps just a second-rate intelligence who could string together some pretty syllables, but I've always found this useful:

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." -- F.S. Fitzgerald.

Re: Center of the universe

#118

Post by rbanffy »

JunkDNA wrote: post #46
westicle wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people seem to have an almost super-human level of charisma/ability to influence others (there is probably a D&D reference to be made here). Certainly the trope is common in fiction. See: The Mentalist (both the protagonist and antagonist share this ability) and several Agatha Christie novels with similar storylines. This guy sounds like a real-life Red John; able to subtly re-wire people's thinking so that they…

I complety fell for one of those Israeli cosmetics things in the mall in my early 20's. My dad was in sales so I am accustomed to all the techniques of persuasion. But for some reason that day I bought $20 or so worth of skin care products I had no intention of using. When I got to my car, I was like, "what on EARTH just happened?!" I have never allowed myself to be so manipulated before or since. Creepy to think of…

Deliberately exposing yourself to these salespeople is great training. As long as you don't buy anything.

I was twice targeted by timeshare resort companies. It's really high-pressure, but it's endless fun to see them escalating salespeople, from the junior interns to the really experienced mindbenders. From praising you for your success, to criticizing you for not living up to what was expected from you at your point in life.

Great exercise.

Re: Center of the universe

#119

Post by allochthon »

kevindication wrote: post #73
tempestn wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy shit. This victim, who 31 year old Dahmer claimed was his lover, was also 14 years old at the time, and the police returned him (naked and bleeding) despite his protests. (Sinthasomphone was disoriented at the time, having been drugged, but apparently still did protest.) At least the officer was fired: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Balcerzak

He was reinstated apparently upon appeal.

That's distressing.

Re: Center of the universe

#120

Post by danbmil99 »

salemh wrote: post #115
danbmil99 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some people seem to have an almost super-human level of charisma/ability to influence others I think most people are completely unaware of how true this is. As students and tech geeks, we've all probably met someone whose talents seemed otherworldly -- mastery of Quantum math, able to punch out code like Notch, that sort of natural intellectual athleticism that seems like something they must have just been born wit…

There is an amount of fair criticism on the subject, but it has made sense (in my opinion), to equate these individuals as being very high in emotional intelligence / awareness of self, others, and the perceptions of themselves, by others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence

This may be true, but in my experience most "emotionally intelligent" people are also -- sometimes to a fault -- prone to really feeling other people's pain as their own.

The interesting combination for me is those with such "emotional intelligence" in that they can read people and figure out their motivations and feelings, but they don't have a significant empathic response, and they appear to feel little or no guilt in utilizing these perceptions for personal gain, regardless of the pain they inevitably cause to those who trusted them.

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