Why We Can No Longer Trust Microsoft • Hacker News Board

Re: Why We Can No Longer Trust Microsoft

#111

Post by chmars » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 11:46 AM UTC

mtgx wrote: post #35

fatjokes wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must admit, I'm no Apple fanboy but in this case, I can easily picture a NSA rep threatening Steve Jobs and Steve Jobs telling him to f * off.

I wonder what would a Tim Cook-made iMessage look like from a security standpoint (probably a lot more like Skype/Hangouts than how it works right now).

iMessage is in no way NSA-proof:

http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/06/can-apple-re...

tl;dr:

  * Apple distributes the encryption keys
  * Multiple keys can be associated with an account (iPhone, Mac – and the NSA?)
  * Apple can retain metadata
  * Apple doesn't use certificate pinning

Re: Why We Can No Longer Trust Microsoft

#112

Post by rmc » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 11:50 AM UTC

scrrr wrote: post #58

acqq wrote: post #3

This is a financial disaster waiting to happen. Microsoft is oblivious if it is not doing something to divorce itself from the NSA. Apple, on the other hand, could have come out smelling like a rose, but following the death of Steve Jobs, who apparently refused to play ball with the NSA, it stupidly jumped on board to join the PRISM club. According to the Prism slides, it really looks so: "Dates when Prism collection…

How do you know it was Steve Jobs that prevented Apple from joining earlier? Perhaps Apple just wasn't a priority for the NSA until 2012.

Possible but unlikely. Steve Jobs was very influencial within Apple. Jobs' opinion was almost certainly a strong factor. Apple had been a leading and popular mobile phone manufacturer for many years before 2012, why wouldn't the NSA be interested in them?

Re: Why We Can No Longer Trust Microsoft

#113

Post by dgesang » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 11:57 AM UTC

tsahyt wrote: post #90

scrrr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know it was Steve Jobs that prevented Apple from joining earlier? Perhaps Apple just wasn't a priority for the NSA until 2012.

Then again, Apple was (and still is) huge on the mobile sector. As far as surveillance goes, I'd expect mobiles to be of high priority.

Why bother with a phone manufacturer when you can have access to all communications directly at the network provider? Much more convenient.

Re: Why We Can No Longer Trust Microsoft

#114

Post by coldtea » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 11:58 AM UTC

scrrr wrote: post #58

acqq wrote: post #3

This is a financial disaster waiting to happen. Microsoft is oblivious if it is not doing something to divorce itself from the NSA. Apple, on the other hand, could have come out smelling like a rose, but following the death of Steve Jobs, who apparently refused to play ball with the NSA, it stupidly jumped on board to join the PRISM club. According to the Prism slides, it really looks so: "Dates when Prism collection…

How do you know it was Steve Jobs that prevented Apple from joining earlier? Perhaps Apple just wasn't a priority for the NSA until 2012.

We don't know. We just went with the more plausible explanation, instead of jumping through hoops to avoid it.

Apple not being a priority for NSA until Oct 2012? Pfft.

Re: Why We Can No Longer Trust Microsoft

#115

Post by JohnLBevan » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 11:58 AM UTC

When a company does what's asked of it by a government and people are upset with the company something's seriously wrong. A company's main priority is typically to make money within the bounds of the law. A government's should be to improve the quality of life and uphold the moral values of its citizens.

I have a feeling had Apple been first on board rather than last the journalist would argue that Microsoft were evil for not complying with a government request and that Apple clearly had the vision to help the nation's security, but maybe that's just me?

Re: Why We Can No Longer Trust Microsoft

#116

Post by jf22 » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 11:58 AM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #37

yuhong wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, remember that PRISM is designed to target foreign communications, so if you are an American, you might be actually safer.

That's bullshit. The problem that people like you don't seem to understand is that online communications can be secure, unless the companies owning the servers themselves cooperate and companies have to cooperate if they have to do so by law. It's only the US that has such a huge budget for spying on people's communications and the US is also part of a select handful of countries going to such great lengths to suppre…

What is the whole "people like you" bit?

He made a valid statement and didn't express much else of his opinions or state of mind.

Unfair to immediately lump somebody into a pre-judged bucket for a single statement.

That's the real bullshit here.

Re: Why We Can No Longer Trust Microsoft

#117

Post by belorn » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 12:03 PM UTC

69_years_and wrote: post #79

I don't think native MS apps running on a local machine are a risk, I imagine (with a little nieviety) that if MS apps/OS were phoning home on a regular basis with the content of ones documents - someone would have noticed and raised a flag (or did I miss it). Nor is exchange BCC a copy to the NSA - again someone would have noticed. Cloud services excluded. PS. It's *buntu that spins my propeller. PPS. I'd be interes…

Windows natively has several data collecting operations on any machine with Windows installed.

Each time you visting a page, IE sends the URL over to be "checked" by Microsoft.

Each update, a summery of all installed packages are collected and sent to Microsoft in order to "improve the experience".

WAT collects your hardware specification, including the serial number of your hard drive.

Each time you connect your operative system to the Internet, it calls home to a Microsoft server to check if the connect works. Its doubtful that they throw away the logs from this.

Microsoft can forceable push new executable code as updates, regardless if settings has turn of updates.

Microsoft word (and Outlook?) do also collect information, but it is supposed to be optional. I don't remember if its on by default, but I am rather sure it is.

Then we have semi-native application such as massager or skype. Both has messages being "scanned".

Some of the sources: https://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/privacy-stateme..., http://redmondmag.com/articles/2010/07/01/what-does-microsof...

Re: Why We Can No Longer Trust Microsoft

#118

Post by acqq » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 12:07 PM UTC

jgreen10 wrote: post #74

lukifer wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's conjecture, but it's likely. Apple as a company has put a high value on user privacy, which was heavily influenced by Steve. He was also known for maintaining a high degree of personal privacy for such a public figure (for instance, refusing to put plates on his car).

Apple is a company producing consumer devices, while the others are companies offering Internet services, which is what PRISM targets. Apple has only recently had some success in the Internet services space with iCloud.

Apple had internet services since around year 2000. Apple had mac.com emails for a very long time, as well as

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MobileMe

.Mac: July 17, 2002 – July 9, 2008

MobileMe: July 9, 2008 – June 30, 2012

iCloud was launched on October 12, 2011, one year before Apple entering Prism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICloud

The main difference before iCloud was that you had to pay for it. I can however remember that I've had free .me account before iCloud, so even .me must have had enough users.

Re: Why We Can No Longer Trust Microsoft

#119

Post by rfctr » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 12:13 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #11

mtgx wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reminds me of Putin a little bit. Even if you think some leader is an asshole, sometimes you need an asshole to stand up to an even bigger bully. I just imagine someone like former president Medvedev (and with no Putin in sight) would've offered Snowden to US government on a silver platter, just like France, Spain, Portugal and Italy tried to do (fortunately unsuccessfully). I remember I was very much against Pu…

Don't mistake a former KGB guy's taunting for a principled stance. Here's how Putin deals with whistleblowers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko_poisoning

You certainly have a court decision or at least an official accusation to support your claim? Just asking.

Re: Why We Can No Longer Trust Microsoft

#120

Post by flexie » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 12:22 PM UTC

acqq wrote: post #3

This is a financial disaster waiting to happen. Microsoft is oblivious if it is not doing something to divorce itself from the NSA. Apple, on the other hand, could have come out smelling like a rose, but following the death of Steve Jobs, who apparently refused to play ball with the NSA, it stupidly jumped on board to join the PRISM club. According to the Prism slides, it really looks so: "Dates when Prism collection…

What amazes me is that among those corporations with revenues in the tens of billions of dollars, not one of them challenged the constitutionality of the decision in court. Not one, not once.

Not that it would be necessary in an obvious case like this, but each one of Microsoft/Skype, Google/Youtube, Apple and Facebook could easily have hired the nation's best and brightest one thousand lawyers at $1,000 an hour, full time for 10 years to defend privacy. It would have been well within their means. Yet, each of them chose to back down. Each of them chose to fail their users' trust.

I don't think its due to cowardice. If these organisations cared the slightest bit they would have acted to protect their users. Not in the wildest scenario would the US government have jailed the leaders of Apple, Google or Microsoft. My best guess is they got something in return.