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Never Trust Facebook

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Re: Never Trust Facebook

#111
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent a fairly large amount of time trying to completely delete my account - it involved emails, 'hidden' links, and multiple confirmation boxes using a nonstandard UI for facebook. A few days ago I made a brand new account (but using the same email as before) and was greeted with the suggestion to add ALL of my old friends right back again. Clearly nothing has been deleted, and I now feel confirmed that it never,…

Just a theory, but could it be that all those friends have your email in their contact list, and when they've done a bulk import Facebook has remembered that connection so it can suggest them to you if you ever join (and vice versa)? The data isn't on your side, it's on there's. Of course there's a whole other (worthy) debate about that, but it doesn't necessarily mean Facebook didn't delete the data you added.

That's a solid point. Thanks!

Re: Never Trust Facebook

#112
post #32
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a fellow 20-something in SF, I feel your pain. I recently made a FB account that I keep absolutely bare except for my friends to invite me to things. It still results in 'leak' that I'm not fond of, but the alternate choice is to continue to be left in the dust.

What data "leaks" that a moderately sophisticated/equipped adversary could not easily learn via other means? In 45 seconds I was able to learn your name, basic age/location, and email from this post, your hn profile and github profile. Another 45 seconds and I found your google+ and twitter accounts, with better location data, education history and employer.

Everything you mentioned is actually data I've purposely made available, EXCEPT for the twitter account, which continues to vex me. I haven't tried to delete that recently; I'll try again soon. (I can't remember what happened the last time...)

Re: Never Trust Facebook

#113
For the 100th time, the only reason any of us are on Facebook and not Google+ or MySpace or Friendster or whatever is because all of our friends are on there with us.

Facebook can and will do whatever it wants to abuse this fact, and as long as they provide the most convenient way to communicate with other people, there is nothing we can do about it, period.

So rant away, my Internet friends, it's all we can do anyway.

Re: Never Trust Facebook

#114

I deleted my Facebook account a few years ago. The whole deal - waited the requisite month or so to ensure that it was gone, and any further login attempts wouldn't re-instate the account. Six months later I signed up with a different email address, and Facebook forced me to confirm my account with my phone number. Javascript Error - that phone number is associated with another Facebook account. I click OK, and I'm r…

How did you delete your account ?

Because no where in Facebook does it allow you to do this. Only deactivate your account.

Re: Never Trust Facebook

#115
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the pragmatic view to take as a user. However, I don't think it's how we want sites to operate. Facebook's ToS state: For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos (IP content), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to…

"This IP License ends when you delete your IP content or your account unless your content has been shared with others, and they have not deleted it." It would be interesting to try to send Facebook a DMCA take-down notice if they undelete your content.

[deleted]

Re: Never Trust Facebook

#116
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the pragmatic view to take as a user. However, I don't think it's how we want sites to operate. Facebook's ToS state: For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos (IP content), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to…

"This IP License ends when you delete your IP content or your account unless your content has been shared with others, and they have not deleted it." It would be interesting to try to send Facebook a DMCA take-down notice if they undelete your content.

[deleted]

Re: Never Trust Facebook

#117
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the pragmatic view to take as a user. However, I don't think it's how we want sites to operate. Facebook's ToS state: For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos (IP content), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to…

"This IP License ends when you delete your IP content or your account unless your content has been shared with others, and they have not deleted it." It would be interesting to try to send Facebook a DMCA take-down notice if they undelete your content.

[deleted]

Re: Never Trust Facebook

#118
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the pragmatic view to take as a user. However, I don't think it's how we want sites to operate. Facebook's ToS state: For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos (IP content), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to…

"This IP License ends when you delete your IP content or your account unless your content has been shared with others, and they have not deleted it." It would be interesting to try to send Facebook a DMCA take-down notice if they undelete your content.

"...unless your content has been shared with others, AND [not 'or'] they have not deleted it."

But wait. What if another person's privacy settings preclude one's ability to know if people have shared my content or not, and/or whether those people deleted it?

Doesn't that place Facebook in a realm of ultimate deniability with respect to whether or not they are still in lawful possession of this implicit IP License?

Case in point:

  1. I upload a scandalous and controversial image, accidentally.

  2. I have a friend, who can see the album that contains the 

     image. [thus it is "shared"]

  3. This "friend" immediately shares it. [satisfying the 

     requisite logical AND whereby it is simultaneously both 

     shared and not yet deleted by them]

  4. The friend UNFRIENDS me (OH NOES!), and locks me out of 

     viewing anything related to their account.

  5. I delete the image, believing that I am revoking the 

     implicit IP License.

  6. Unbeknownst to me, Facebook retains an IP License by virtue 

     of the fact that someone else has not deleted the image.

  7. Due to Facebook's policy, they are bound by their own 

     privacy obligations to the other user, to withhold from me 

     information regarding WHO still possesses the image, and 

     will not tell me HOW they are able to claim lawful 

     possession of an IP License for the image I am trying to 

     revoke.

  8. I am stuck in the very limbo that OP is complaining about, 

     whereby Facebook claims to have an implicit License to 

     publish content, but will refuse to disclose the evidence 

     of who has yet to delete the image, as prove that their own 

     license is derived by the actions of another.

  9. In theory, this other user might very well "forget" their 

     Facebook password (whoopsie! but innocently, and certainly 

     not as revenge...) and lock themselves out of their own 

     account. In this manner Facebook now entitles themselves to 

     the IP rights of this image in perpetuity, without the 

     potential for revocation, because thei refuse to unlock the 

     sharer's account without adequate proof.
So when you "share with others" (whatever that might specifically mean, according to how they've defined their user interface at that particular moment), that very action is potentially bestowing onto Facebook potentially eternal IP rights to distribute that content forever.

Like, simply by virtue of sharing, any person who then accesses the content and then re-shares it and refuses to delete it, is then acting as the de-facto rights holder from which all of Facebook's privileges are derived.

But by letting another Facebook user access your shared content, as a peer, it's not immediately clear where that peer truly derives their eternal permission to forever re-share everything they ever had access to as your friend. Why does that person possess eternal rights to share YOUR content on Facebook, simply by being listed as your friend? Where does that part come from? Isn't that behavior enabled by Facebook? And doesn't Facebook reserve the right to redefine how things are "shared" at will? So then, doesn't that mean that Facebook is enabling itself?

Doesn't it seem like there is strong potential for a conflict of interest between Facebook and the other two parties involved?

Re: Never Trust Facebook

#119
post #7

FB has, over the years, gradually lost my trust until I deleted my account in November 2010 after having been a member since late 2004 when FB was college-only. As a 20-something living in SF, it's a daily thing now: I don't get invited to parties, I don't know about birthdays, I don't see my friends' photos, I don't have any contact with anyone from high school or college anymore. There is a real social cost for som…

Growing number of my friends are in FB with fake names and identities. It's more complicated when you add new friends or they want to add you, but otherwise it's ok for keeping touch with close friends. Yes, its against FB user agreement but fuck that.

And when I travel and try to add new people to my friend list, to verify it's me logging in, facebook shows me pictures of food and cats and asks me to identify my friends that have tagged everything but themselves. Plus I'm remembering a hundred fake names, because nobody uses their real name.

I'm the same, I do it too and think it's very neccessary, but it can interfere with FB procedures in funny ways.

But then again, all this isn't new information. I have never really trusted a webpage with relevant stuff. ECHELON is old news, and servers can be hacked. The level of trust some people put into the net amazes me.

Re: Never Trust Facebook

#120
post #112
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What data "leaks" that a moderately sophisticated/equipped adversary could not easily learn via other means? In 45 seconds I was able to learn your name, basic age/location, and email from this post, your hn profile and github profile. Another 45 seconds and I found your google+ and twitter accounts, with better location data, education history and employer.

Everything you mentioned is actually data I've purposely made available, EXCEPT for the twitter account, which continues to vex me. I haven't tried to delete that recently; I'll try again soon. (I can't remember what happened the last time...)

I still am curious about the information that a "absolutely bare" FB profile leaks?
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