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The Decline and Fall of the English Major

nytimes.com

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Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#111

Post by mtdewcmu »

lemmsjid wrote: post #34

I'm one of those English majors who pops up in interesting places (in this case, software engineering). After more than a decade in the field, I continue feeling that my degree was excellent preparation for writing code. Allow me some bullet points: * The typical English major is drilled in taking an impenetrable text and constructing an interpretive narrative (an essay). Much of the major involves writing essay afte…

"The progression of the English major is that typically you go from thinking you're a hotshot writer to understanding that you are a bag of presuppositions and ill considered narratives... A well trained English major is the first to point out that their precious interpretation is probably not correct"

In other words, humility. You learn it in science and engineering, too. It's hard to get through rigorous training in those fields without grappling with your own limits. You can't fake it. In computer science, the computer lets you know when you've failed. In science, the data tells you when you're wrong, and, failing that, there's peer review. In math, you have proofs. Any endeavor that is empirical and data-driven exposes nonsense efficiently and ruthlessly.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#112

Post by dnautics »

jacalata wrote: post #101
bane wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's sad that the classical education is no more, but it's also true that the humanities rotted from within This really resonated with me. I find the concept of a classical education immensely important. I originally wanted to be a music major before diverting to CS. Even during my CS studies, I took extra liberal coursework to try and "round out" my education: history courses, literature, etc. I found it troubling…

Old art is all popular because the unpopular old art wasn't kept around. Modern art looks unpopular because it hasn't yet been filtered.

that's part of it, but there is also an increased emphasis on intent away from skill, and 'craftsmanship' has practically become a bad word. On the other hand, this unfortunate turn has made places like the American Visionary Art Museum (which celebrates "idiosyncratic skill") really interesting.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#113

Post by Crake »

gammarator wrote: post #70
greenyoda wrote: post #12

"What many undergraduates do not know — and what so many of their professors have been unable to tell them — is how valuable the most fundamental gift of the humanities will turn out to be. That gift is clear thinking, clear writing and a lifelong engagement with literature." I seem to have acquired all three of these gifts, and I majored in computer science. Also, if English dies as an academic discipline, it may ve…

I seem to have acquired all three of these gifts, and I majored in computer science. We all think that; it's a cognitive bias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_wobegon_effect One of the benefits of writing classes is the chance to improve in response to third-party feedback. Our arguments are rarely as tight nor our prose as clear as they seem to us.

The difference between compsci and english is that if your prose is not clear in the latter, you'll still get an A (or even get an A because of the lack of clarity), whereas your code will not work in the former if it's muddled to the point of obscurity and non-functionality.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#115

Post by Crake »

1123581321 wrote: post #38

The necessity of studying one's own language is the problem. Most of what is read in English should have been read before college begins. And what's left? There is no language to master as there is with a French or Classics major, save some specialty work in old/middle English. The interesting linguistics are covered by that field. Education majors cover the pedagogical aspects just fine. So, the only thing that can…

I read more books before I started college than most of my liberal arts college graduated friends have read in their entire lives.

Some of them still haven't read Orwell.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#116

Post by pjbrunet »

abraininavat wrote: post #79
nooron wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He or she wrote a sincere and earnest comment. Please show yourself out.

Consider that maybe you missed pjbrunet's point.

"At the time, if anyone had asked me "what are you going to 'do' with that? what about the economics?" (and I know this, because they did), I would have said that economics aren't everything. Are they?"

While I was in art school, I can't count the number of times I heard the phrase: "Would you like fries with that?"

#2 was always something about underwater basketweaving.

I guess the humor/affirmation didn't translate. Maybe I hit "reply" too far down, took a while for the fries thing to bubble up from 19 years ago. Maybe not such a common phrase in this context as it was back then.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#117

Post by dnautics »

bane wrote: post #60
saraid216 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IME, I was pushed into the 5-paragraph form more during primary education; in secondary school, there were no such requirements. (That might be a consequence of having been moved into AP classes; I never looked into what regular English did.) I think this was a good thing, since I was forced to learn to support my claims and look at them structurally. The issue is that "English" is a non-subject. In early education,…

The 5-paragraph essay gets a lot of hate, much of it deserved as it gets overused, but I've found it a very helpful tool to get students to organize their thoughts. I used to help tutor East Asian ESL students and getting them to understand how to make an argument and then support it with evidence was difficult, but once they grokked how it worked, vastly improved their communications. Were I a regular English teache…

the 5-paragraph structure is wonderful. I used (a 4-paragraph version of) it for my MCATs in one essay and used the french equivalent (these - antithese - synthese) in another - mind you you have 30 minutes to organize and write each essay. It forces you to do exactly that, think about what your point is and put in a place where your reader will actually see it, and not drown it in a sea of words.

A scientific paper is basically that, except expanded into bigger sections. When authors take liberties with the structure it really results in incomprehensible gibberish. Even for general expository writing - I found that reading through internship essays, for example, when the essay was a ramble, I would chuck the whole application, but when the essay had clear topics and supporting information structure, I kept it.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#118

Post by 6ren »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #75
patio11 wrote: post #35

The first paragraph would be improved by the economic reality that dare not speak its name: adjunct . Most people who pursue the PhD in English will fail to join the one profession which actually needs English PhDs (training future English PhDs) and instead, if they want to continue putting to use the last 7+ years of their life dedicated to mastering the reification of privilege and construction of the other as demo…

I could never understand why my classmates had such trouble with getting good grades in English classes. Most of them attended similar if not superior high schools. The Catholic school students certainly should have had a better grasp of language and composition. In the long run, my successes were a combination of reading experience and the ability to quickly create mental outlines. I was a voracious reader as a chil…

I sometimes use online communication like a letter. I pause to collect my thoughts. I proof-read. I revise.

Two points: (1). I only do this when I have something to say (or, rather, when thoughts call me to say them). However, pretty much whenever I look into something, I find I have something to say. (2). They are typically only a paragraph or two long, even though the argument might have several parts and be carefully nuanced. That's partly because I'm striving for simplicity and clarity but it might be simply the natural length of those thoughts. However, again, the more I look into something, the more I find I have to say.

So (having written this) I think my writing quantity and length is less a measure of my ability than of how often and how deeply I "look into things".

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#119

Post by raverbashing »

nooron wrote: post #64
bane wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's sad that the classical education is no more, but it's also true that the humanities rotted from within This really resonated with me. I find the concept of a classical education immensely important. I originally wanted to be a music major before diverting to CS. Even during my CS studies, I took extra liberal coursework to try and "round out" my education: history courses, literature, etc. I found it troubling…

My first impulse at this was to slam my fists on my keyboard and howl with rage. Since that's totally unproductive and not an appropriate response to a sophisticated argument such as yours, I'll abstain. I'd also like to acknowledge that at the end of my remarks, we're unlikely to agree fully. But I'm hoping I can demonstrate my perception of these phenomenon that you specify, my perception of your perception, and in…

> Post script, you can like pop and Bach at the same time and there's precisely nothing wrong with that.

THIS. And let me add Bach is (was) the dance music of yesteryears (follow the 3/4). (Mozart was probably rock)

The thing with "modern music is crap" has one factor helping it, we never got to hear Bach's time crap music.

(Note: the above is my opinion based on my shallow knowledge of music)

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#120

Post by jlgreco »

sk5t wrote: post #41
krakensden wrote: post #16

> No one has found a way to put a dollar sign on this kind of literacy, and I doubt anyone ever will. But everyone who possesses it — no matter how or when it was acquired — knows that it is a rare and precious inheritance. This is a widespread sentiment. This is even a chic sentiment. This is maybe even a sentiment I once sympathized with. It is also the kind of romantic bullshit that hurts people. It doesn't really…

Are you arguing that there exists a class of people smart enough to gain admission into and pay for college, yet too simpleminded to assess the hazy job prospects based around a degree in English, psychology, art history, and the like? As far as I know, every major world culture produces writers, poets, sculptors, and musicians, and in no case is an education in those fields a guaranteed ticket to economic prosperity…

> a class of people smart enough to gain admission into and pay for college, yet too simpleminded to assess the hazy job prospects based around a degree in English, psychology, art history, and the like?

There is a metric fuck-ton of people who get into college and have no idea what they got into college for. That's what happens when you tell entire generations of 18-year-olds that merely having a college degree is the important part, and that they must have a college degree.

Counting them off in my head about half the people I went to highschool with (and kept in touch with) picked majors based on what interested them most, only to start panicing 3 to 4 years later and desperately throw in teaching track classes. Two unemployed english teachers, three unemployed chemistry teachers, and a woman with a BS in mathematics who is currently teaching special education 5th graders in maryland. Besides the last, the rest are mostly all still living with their parents taking substitute teaching gigs. The Chemistry/Math people got hosed by not having any plan or intention of going further than a bachelors degree.

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