Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers • Hacker News Board

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#111

Post by etherael » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 7:27 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #27

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service? In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go…

This divides the world neatly into two camps, those with the desire to participate in government, and those who do not, whilst simultaneously ascribing an unquestioned halo on those in the first group and jumping straight to the assumption that those in the second group are not prepared to engage in that system because they are too lazy, selfish or busy feathering their own nests.

I'd say the opposite, lawyers and politicians and public servants tend to be passive, arm-chair participants in society. They involve themselves mostly in ritual and horse trading, trying to figure out how to apportion shares of the existing wealth created by people utterly unlike them and to whom the only way they can relate is parasitically.

Meanwhile, back outside the structure of the government; people in the shadows are reinventing trade itself and releasing the very core ingredients of the products of their labour for free to anyone who wishes to participate.

Businesses are being started every day by people who hope for a better future. To better their own conditions through their own efforts as well as everyone else's also. They build products and make new things that are the source of all wealth in human civilisation. If you don't want what they have to offer you simply choose not to trade with them of your own free will and they will ask nothing from you by force or fraud.

The aforementioned vultures you hold in such high esteem on the other hand, deem themselves fit to distribute that wealth according to the baroque and corrupt rules of their game, which they do not accept a refusal to participate in by anyone alive on penalty of kidnap, assault and if it comes down to it, death.

You'll have to excuse me if I can't help but see your perspective as tragically delusional.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#112

Post by hilko » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 7:41 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #27

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service? In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go…

In my experience most 'hackers' I meet fall in two camps concerning 'moral causes': 1) too shy / world-strange to even find a cause to fight for, or 2) too obsessed with and paralyzed by a kind of perfection that keeps them from diluting their views to make some practical change.

I've often wondered what my place is in this, and if I can contribute in connecting these hackers, often very skilled and capable, with something 'bigger' to fight for or work towards.

Instead, most talent around me works on silly apps and the next big startup (some restaurant finder, no doubt).

(I'm not being condescending, by the way. I feel that it is not my job to judge people for their choices. But personally I want to do something that I consider worthwhile in some 'grander scheme', and it frustrates me to see talent wasted, but only wasted from my personal point of view)

Any ideas on how to get hackers 'involved'?

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#113

Post by hilko » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 7:48 PM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #99

peterwwillis wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most people working in tech aren't focusing on problems that are anywhere near as important as those that public service tackles FUCK. YES. This is exactly the point that should be made more. Can you imagine how much we could improve the quality of life of everyday people if everyone in Silicon Valley focused on economic, environmental and social issues for a couple months? There are so many problems whose solutions…

> There are so many problems whose solutions are dead simple for hackers, but hackers aren't working on them! Do you have any specific examples? Perhaps the issue is that hackers are not good at perceiving social issues that their skill sets make them particularly well-suited to tackle.

Perhaps hackers tend to be a little more structured and in-crowd, or downright strangers to most of the world. I'm not sure. Or perhaps hackers can easily be distracted by any type of problem, no matter how trivial, no how much it benefits others over them, or no matter how insignificant it is. I think the latter is true very often.

The hackers I do know tend to be, generally speaking, wonderfully excited by problems presented to them, and have a childlike exuberance solving them. They are 'moral' individuals, but often seem to be unburdened by 'grander scheme' questions.

My uncle, for example, had a really important job but got paid relatively little. He was just... happy and never bothered to ask for a raise.

I've been trying to think of ways to 'prod' hackers to solve these problems that are 'bigger' in a way, but often still relatively trivial to solve.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#114

Post by sliverstorm » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 7:51 PM UTC

rfnslyr wrote: post #110

sliverstorm wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no payment for gas, free charging Wait, what? When did Tesla's vision become "free electricity for everyone"?

Elon Musk wants to cover the country with charging stations that are free to use so that you can travel forever, for free. No more gas refills. Nine stations now provide free electricity for Model S owners, and the company has said it wants 100 along U.S. and Canadian highways by 2015.

I thought the free electricity was only for people who bought the most expensive model of the Model S?

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#115

Post by kragen » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 8:00 PM UTC

CleanedStar wrote: post #106

rayiner wrote: post #27

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service? In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go…

It's obvious you've been little involved in "activism", and thus know little about it. Many things bely this, including usage of the word activism - most serious "activists" I know call themselves organizers, not activists. Activist is a word used by detractors and the media - it gives an image of a solitary person, maybe on some ego trip, while organizer implies a group effort. An example being Obama who, rightly or…

The hackers I know who work in activism full-time include Seth Schoen, Jake Appelbaum, Richard Stallman, and Zooko O'Whielacronx. Are you suggesting that these people would be more effective if they hadn't devoted their lives to activism? Or that they'd be more effective in the future if they did it only part-time?

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#116

Post by hilko » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 8:01 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #50

rayiner wrote: post #27

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service? In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go…

Marry her. I'm only slightly joking. A couple of a hacker and a liberal-arts major seems like a good way to transfer ideas and understanding between the two communities.

Oh indeed !

I've always straddled the line between both worlds. Obsessively programming as a kid/teenager, then studying communications and psychology, and now a web developer. And there is so much space, generally speaking, between the two worlds that any connection is a Very Good Thing.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#117

Post by hilko » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 8:05 PM UTC

JamisonM wrote: post #10

jenius wrote: post #3

I've gotta agree with Appelbaum - this thesis is ridiculous and unsupported. There are tons of activists in many different fields, and there's nothing about being a computer programmer that makes you more likely to be an activist. Just because this guy cited a couple of activists who were also computer programmers is just not support enough -- if he really wanted a balanced review, he would have talked about any acti…

What you wrote here is exactly what sprung to my mind upon reading the headline, never mind the story itself. But then after reading it I got to thinking of all the developers that I have met that are absolutely resolute in their belief that, for example, the whole project was done wrong from that start and needs to be written despite the fact that I think it is clear that the risk-reward for such a thing is a terrib…

I think the hacker problem is that we're too damn happy to solve a problem successfully, no matter if it is a problem of consequence or not.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#118

Post by dylangs1030 » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 8:08 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #57

rayiner wrote: post #27

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service? In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go…

A good hacker is wasted in public service. Why bother working for an environmental non-profit when you can make many orders of magnitude more difference by founding Tesla Motors or Nanosolar? Who has more impact on education, a good elementary teacher or Sal Khan? Why campaign for privacy when you can write PGP or Tor, why work as a fundraiser when you could build Kiva or Watsi? The hacker skillset is a lever big eno…

"A good hacker is wasted in public service."

Absolutely wrong. I take issue with this statement. A few points to the contrary:

1. Is it that you consider any non-profit pursuit beneath a competent hacker? What about open source projects and all the work that has been released under various public licences, literally as a "public service"?

2. Is it that you think for profit organizations are more influential and beneficial than non-profits? Tesla Motors and Nanosolar are still businesses at their heart; their markets happen to be environmental. A non-profit is literally devoted to public service first. As such, they have different priorities.

3. Is it that you think every competent hacker has every skill necessary to start Tesla or Nanosolar? Does every hacker that founds a startup succeed? Or is it still the case that most startups fail miserably? Do you think every hacker has this utopian skillset and can do whatever they want to impact the world?

Some hackers are incredibly efficient and merely competent. Some hackers are not so efficient but are incredibly skilled. Some are both. Not everyone can be Elon Musk, and Elon Musk wouldn't be well suited to working in a non-profit. But it's not fair to say that every hacker is above public service. That's elitist.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#119

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 8:09 PM UTC

hilko wrote: post #113

jlgreco wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are so many problems whose solutions are dead simple for hackers, but hackers aren't working on them! Do you have any specific examples? Perhaps the issue is that hackers are not good at perceiving social issues that their skill sets make them particularly well-suited to tackle.

Perhaps hackers tend to be a little more structured and in-crowd, or downright strangers to most of the world. I'm not sure. Or perhaps hackers can easily be distracted by any type of problem, no matter how trivial, no how much it benefits others over them, or no matter how insignificant it is. I think the latter is true very often. The hackers I do know tend to be, generally speaking, wonderfully excited by problems…

I think my problem is that compared to many hackers, I think that technical solutions that hackers might be able to provide are rarely the proper solutions.

What are the major problems today? Hunger? Overpopulation and access to family planning? Sanitation? Malaria, and other diseases? LGBT rights?

Are any of these things really suffering for lack of hackers proposing technical solutions?

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#120

Post by rayiner » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 8:15 PM UTC

thomasf1 wrote: post #90

peterwwillis wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great example of why a good hacker should work in public service. Why bother working for an environmental non-profit when you can make many orders of magnitude more difference by founding Tesla Motors or Nanosolar Because an environmental non-profit might make immediate changes that save people's lives. A non-profit might put enough pressure on a company to stop polluting groundwater or destroying fragile e…

There is one big difference: In Government / from within, hackers generally don´t have the skills to be able to change the system - Government is run by politicians - the effect of a good hacker is about as small as in your typical old-world corporate run by finance guys… Compare that to companies where hackers are the CEOs…

We're not talking about being filing clerk #4325 in the bowels of the Veterans Affairs administration. There are many parts of the government where a good hacker could have a major impact.