Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#111

Post by chairface » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 4:14 PM UTC

rorymarinich wrote: post #104

chairface wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there's an attitude amongst this type of person that says they are entirely not to blame for the harassment they get They _are_ entirely not to blame for what they get. What they _are_ to blame for is their own behavior. I don't have a problem with you saying that some people are irritating and do annoying things. What I have a problem with is the suggestion that they _share in the blame for what others do to t…

If I act like an asshole, then when people get mad at me for being an asshole I'm to blame. If I reject people for not being smarter than I am, then if they get mad at me I'm to blame. I agree. You are responsible for yourself but nobody else. You seem to imply, however, that others' actions dwell in a void entirely uninspired by your own actions. I hold, on the other hand, that everything influences everything else,…

I am very close to agreeing with your first paragraph. Yeah, in those situations, you're to blame for being an asshole or rejecting people. But if they respond by beating you over it, the blame for _that_ falls on them.

In any case, I think what I wrote in the other thread about how I'm separating the concepts of "cause" and "blame" should clear this up.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#112

Post by dkarl » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 4:23 PM UTC

chairface wrote: post #102

dkarl wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For fairness' sake you should also focus on what the unpopular do to other people: how they bring down a conversation, unwittingly sabotage their friends' efforts at looking sane and approachable, pick the wrong moments for racy jokes, and hijack conversations towards topics they find interesting but nobody else does. In hindsight, I can see that I wasn't always a pleasant person to be around. High school kids don't…

The entire article and most of rory's comments in this thread are about what the unpopular do to other people. I'm balancing that.

I'm pretty sure it was already balanced by the preponderance of extended meditations on the indignities suffered by nerds. It's not like jocks blog insightfully about their social anxieties. Hell, I don't think most popular kids understood what was going on at all. They were just going on instinct. It's nice to see some actual analysis about the other side of the equation for a change, and it seems like a bad idea to immediately swing the focus back to the side that we already understand.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#113

Post by chairface » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 4:25 PM UTC

jibiki wrote: post #99

chairface wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the world that I know. I write about it. Except you didn't limit yourself to that. You wrote about the world that everyone experiences, and essentially told a bunch of other people that they are wrong about their own experiences. > Are you saying that a young, bright 18-year-old shouldn't write at all because he knows that most of what he says is wrong? I'm saying that anyone, regardless of age or intellige…

> I'm saying that anyone, regardless of age or intelligence, should try to avoid generalizing from their almost certainly narrow experience. The correct response to such a generalization is just to present counterexamples. Your comments seem to express the idea that it's wrong to present a generalization in public. That's just silly.

At the time I posted this, plenty of others had posted their counterexamples. Mine would have just added to the noise.

Further, I would submit that it _is_ wrong to let a generalization masquerade as a general truth in public.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#114

Post by illustraden » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 4:33 PM UTC

One time, this guy at my school made it to Hollywood in American Idol and the school paper did a bit on that and a friend at that time became irate. Like, RAGING, throwing things against the wall. He said he did cooler things in programming-he had hurricane coding skills. As opposed to something as utterly inane as American Idol and nobody wrote an article on him. After graduating, I make it a point to avoid people like that. I'm completely traumatized from being surrounded by those people every day for 4 years. My friends now don't know what the heck i'm talking about when something triggers those memories and I marvel about how obnoxious those people were. Then she sent me this article, and she asked me, you mean like this? And I said YES!

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#115

Post by chairface » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 4:36 PM UTC

dkarl wrote: post #112

chairface wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire article and most of rory's comments in this thread are about what the unpopular do to other people. I'm balancing that.

I'm pretty sure it was already balanced by the preponderance of extended meditations on the indignities suffered by nerds. It's not like jocks blog insightfully about their social anxieties. Hell, I don't think most popular kids understood what was going on at all. They were just going on instinct. It's nice to see some actual analysis about the other side of the equation for a change, and it seems like a bad idea to…

Well, that's what discussions are made of. I think it's silly of you to suggest that I shouldn't say anything without making sure to reiterate the original author's points.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#116

Post by amalcon » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 4:40 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #106

amalcon wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I'd also done things that might appear like this on occasion, even though I trusted that the person asking wasn't playing some sort of practical joke or simply trying to get me to do their work for them. The reason is that the questions were often things like "How do I make a web page on geocities?" or "How do I program DOS?" In the former case, after establishing that they didn't want me to actually sit down…

Just because the person didn't know enough about the domain to use the correct terminology is no reason to belittle them by thinking they "want to do something stupid," though (and yes, that's why they're angry); half of software engineering is figuring out what the heck people mean with their requirements, and the usual best first assumption, no matter who your client/student is, is that they want to do something co…

My problem is that people often think you're trying to belittle them when you're just trying to figure out what they want to do. Maybe this is because people do belittle each other for not knowing proper terminology. It still causes problems.

I have had people ask me "how do you program DOS", when they were in fact looking for (among other things):

- How do I write a batch file (easy to explain)

- How do I make a simple console program (slightly tougher, but I could at least point them in the right direction, or show them if they are willing to take the time)

- How do I program my calculator to do trigonometry for me (This was my absolute favorite one, because I could actually show them the basics on the spot! Back in the day, I showed a few people how to do this, who actually turned out to really enjoy doing it!)

- How do I make a game (this is the worst one)

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#117

Post by bena » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 4:51 PM UTC

endlessvoid94 wrote: post #60

Most (not all) of the responses here seem to absolutely confirm this essay's main points. The posters here generally are taking some kind of offense to this, and feel the need to shoot it full of holes. In the meantime, this behavior is only reinforcing the point to anyone who happens to not be a programmer. It's actually quite striking.

If someone came on here and said something blatantly false such as "Gravity doesn't exist. Here's a bunch of technobabble explaining why it doesn't. Anyone who doesn't agree is a douche and part of the conspiracy to hide the truth." Would the multitudes of people coming to refute his points confirm his point that there is a conspiracy to hide the truth?

Or would it mean that he just may be wrong.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#118

Post by Hexstream » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 5:09 PM UTC

HalcyonMuse wrote: post #27

dasil003 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on the school. In my high school there was no dominant clique, so the situation was somewhat as the author described. Sure people made fun of nerds, mostly because they left themselves open to it by being different and socially awkward, but there was definitely no strict hierarchy amongst cliques. I think there is some truth to the idea that certain nerds create a sense of superiority as a defense m…

Judging by the rest of Mr. Marinich's content, I'd be surprised if you're very far off the mark. Here's what I found particularly ironic: most of the online stuff of his I read (well, skimmed) was pretty negative, hostile and generally involved lashing out at people. After about five minutes I couldn't help but think of Maddox.

No, Maddox is fun to read and oftentimes insightful.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#119

Post by Psyonic » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 5:19 PM UTC

rorymarinich wrote: post #43

dasil003 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on the school. In my high school there was no dominant clique, so the situation was somewhat as the author described. Sure people made fun of nerds, mostly because they left themselves open to it by being different and socially awkward, but there was definitely no strict hierarchy amongst cliques. I think there is some truth to the idea that certain nerds create a sense of superiority as a defense m…

Personally I find the notion that "I define myself as a programmer" offensive. Programming is something I do, and I do it reasonably well, but at the end of the day it's only one of many things I do, and it's certainly not "who I am." I agree. As I say, that's the sort of programmer I tend to like. The problem is, that's not the sort that aspiring programmers run into when they're first learning. I joined my first co…

I don't see what's so bad about identifying with your work. Would you be equally bothered by a doctor who considers himself a doctor, as opposed to saying "I do practice medicine, but that's only one of many things I do, and certainly not who I am?" Identification with profession is as old as time (last names anyone?) and often indicates someone who is passionate about their work.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#120

Post by Psyonic » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 5:24 PM UTC

rorymarinich wrote: post #68

noamsml wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, though Facebook is clearly a resounding success, I'm not sure I'd use the words "beautiful" and "makes people happy". More like "useful" and "makes people connected".

It makes people happy. My mother has found old high school friends - old high school crushes , even - and met up with people who left her life a long time ago. A friend of mine in Washington D.C. uses it to organize all her groups of friends for her homecoming party. I used Facebook for writing my notes before I decided to make everything I wrote public, and I bonded with a lot of people over issues I'd never thought…

Facebook also causes anxiety. Now that older people are joining, its getting more complicated. My aunt just added me... I like my aunt, but do I really want her up-to-date on my day to day life? That said, I don't want to deny her... This is becoming a more pressing problem every day, as friends' parents add me, etc.