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Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#111

Post by betterunix »

khuey wrote: post #71
math wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe worth sharing an observation from my building endeavors in Cambodia: often the workers don't realize the risks they are taking, so before lobbying for decent standards, they often need to actually comprehend what they are. This can be more difficult to get through to them than you might think. For example getting welders to always wear eye protection, getting people spray paint for a living to do so in a proper…

We [the west] didn't understand it either until people started dying. Sometimes lessons have to be learned the hard way.

It sounds like the lessons were already learned. Why are workers still being endangered? Just because they live in a different country?

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#112

Post by gbog »

jacquesm wrote: post #96
gbog wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not misunderstanding. You link to an awful video, draw general conclusions on the account of one event, and your unsaid conclusion is that Chinese people disdain human lives. 100 years ago you'd have added infanticide. So, no, Chinese people are not heartless zombies workers, they cherish human life and had a full structured ethical system when Europe was Barbary, and they are taking themselves out of survival m…

You're more than just a little bit disingenuous here. Besides adding a whole pile of strawmen you seem to have a pre-conceived notion that in order to get out of a planned economy into a market economy there is no route other than those that lead through tremendously unsafe work practice and disregard for environmental issues. And we already know that that isn't true.

"We"?

And no, working practice are not tremendously unsafe in China, even if they are less safe than in the west in some industries.

Chinese people have a much deeper relation with mother nature than in the west in many regards, their art and culture and literature and gardens are a proof of that. They are extremely concerned with environmental issues, thanks.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#113

Post by betterunix »

bargl wrote: post #63
pavs wrote: post #22

One of the issue that comes up with this type of discussion about low pay to workers on developing worlds like China, India, Bangladesh (recently you might have heard some news about it in the media). I am in Bangladesh, while I agree that a lot can be done to improve working conditions and worker safety, and in some cases worker's payment too. But its not nearly as bad as people make it (esp the ones who have never…

I'm inclined to agree with pavs. I've done some traveling and living abroad, and it seems that these many other countries are in an industrial revolution stage of development. For the USA that meant better working environments, hours, safety, and pay. Before these things were in place we had insufficient labor laws here too. The portion that I'm missing is that, here in the states our industrial revolution paid well…

"However, I think the OP being concerned about this is great, but you can't force change onto another culture nor should you"

We can, however, stop buying products made in such dangerous factories, and make it clear why we are doing so. Why should we demand that factories in this country adhere to certain safety standards, then buy cheap goods from factories in other countries that do not adhere to the same standards?

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#114

Post by city41 »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #64
sambeau wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the low-pay per se that concerns those who criticise the outsourcing of everything to the developing world. It is the lack of comparable safety standards, environmental standards and workers' rights. We in the developed world fought hard for around 200 years to achieve these standards and rights and it smarts to see large corporations side-step them by outsourcing to countries that don't require or enforce t…

A company doing business in Bangladesh has a fixed amount of money they can spend on compensation + safety + etc. In a competitive industry like garment manufacturing, the margins are already very thin, so increasing safety will result in reduced worker pay (or shutting down and workers becoming unemployed). There is no free lunch. The most we can do is force workers to trade pay for safety, which they might not want…

We can also educate consumers and show them they really should be buying garments made in America or at least in better conditions/wages than the average. I happily pay more for my clothes knowing that the extra money goes towards that.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#115

Post by ArtB »

eksith wrote: post #38
pavs wrote: post #22

One of the issue that comes up with this type of discussion about low pay to workers on developing worlds like China, India, Bangladesh (recently you might have heard some news about it in the media). I am in Bangladesh, while I agree that a lot can be done to improve working conditions and worker safety, and in some cases worker's payment too. But its not nearly as bad as people make it (esp the ones who have never…

You're in Bangladesh and in a well of part of the city, you say. A family of 6 with 2 maids and 2 drivers too. Your entire post reminds me of something else I read : http://newint.org/features/2013/01/01/india-elite-sense-of-e... While the countries are all different (I'm from Sri Lanka originally), the attitudes are astoundingly similar. It's the Western equivalent of let them eat cake since they're used to eating g…

> It's the Western equivalent of let them eat cake since they're used to eating grass. Underpaid labor is better than no pay is an excuse of the privileged; and only the privileged.

...and only an excuse.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#116

Post by city41 »

jonknee wrote: post #75
yummyfajitas wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company doing business in Bangladesh has a fixed amount of money they can spend on compensation + safety + etc. In a competitive industry like garment manufacturing, the margins are already very thin, so increasing safety will result in reduced worker pay (or shutting down and workers becoming unemployed). There is no free lunch. The most we can do is force workers to trade pay for safety, which they might not want…

> A company doing business in Bangladesh has a fixed amount of money they can spend on compensation + safety + etc. That's not true, the safety expenses should be mandated and everyone's prices will increase accordingly. Prices are set according to costs and in the developed world, safety is a required cost. It could happen overnight if the big customers actually required it. Imagine if Walmart suspended billions of…

The problem with that is country borders. If China mandated safety then the factories just move to another country.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#117

Post by betterunix »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #104
nemo wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The most we can do is force workers to trade pay for safety, which they might not want to do." This is a weird way to frame things, as though workers don't really mind being killed or injured on the job. Safety is management's responsibility, not an employee choice.

The question is not whether workers mind being killed or injured. The question is which they mind more - lower pay, unemployment, or an increased risk of injury or death. There are many things we could do to reduce your first world risk of death - mandate that all cars are have a mechanically enforced speed limit of 20mph, for example. We choose not to. Why?

That argument presupposes that people are not facing a real risk of starving to death if they are unemployed. I am not sure that is something that can be assumed.

When there is a gun pointed at your head, you do not have a real choice.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#118

Post by mmagin »

betterunix wrote: post #111
khuey wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We [the west] didn't understand it either until people started dying. Sometimes lessons have to be learned the hard way.

It sounds like the lessons were already learned. Why are workers still being endangered? Just because they live in a different country?

One of the shocking things (to those of us in the developed world) is that in many cases, human life is treated as less valuable in less-developed parts of the world. Not just by other people, but by the person themselves.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#119

Post by betterunix »

city41 wrote: post #116
jonknee wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A company doing business in Bangladesh has a fixed amount of money they can spend on compensation + safety + etc. That's not true, the safety expenses should be mandated and everyone's prices will increase accordingly. Prices are set according to costs and in the developed world, safety is a required cost. It could happen overnight if the big customers actually required it. Imagine if Walmart suspended billions of…

The problem with that is country borders. If China mandated safety then the factories just move to another country.

Yeah, and the solution is not to only mandate safety standards at your own factories, but to impose a stiff tariff on goods produced in countries without comparable standards (and without meaningful enforcement). Yeah, I know, "free trade," but it is not a fair market if some people are playing by a different set of rules, and we do not want to have a race to the bottom.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#120

Post by jcrites »

smoyer wrote: post #35

It's a bit disingenuous to suggest that accidents like this don't also happen in the U.S. (or other "first-world" countries). In the mid-to-late '90s I was working on a project that had a fatal accident in the Omaha NE area (fortunately I wasn't present to witness it). Another contractor was lacing new fiber-optic cable to the existing coaxial cable and realized they'd run the fiber over a safety ground about 7 poles…

> They knew there was a slight risk the ground wire would be hot once disconnected

Is there some way you could measure that before touching it or messing with it? And then call in the power company if its properties are not what they are expected to be?

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