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The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

businessinsider.com

111–120 of 128 posts

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#111
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Truly world-class engineers can be brought to the US on O visas. H1Bs are trying to fill a need for good or even great, but not amazing, engineers. Which is why it's a tragedy that so many of the spots go to shitty outsourcing firms for mediocre wages.

They could not get O visa for Linus Torvalds. Not amazing enough, eh?

I haven't seen anything about Linus applying for an O visa and getting denied. Where can I read about that?

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#112
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could not get O visa for Linus Torvalds. Not amazing enough, eh?

I haven't seen anything about Linus applying for an O visa and getting denied. Where can I read about that?

From what I remember lawyers advised against O as he had no chance without publications.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#113
post #108
post #75

This is amazingly bad statistics. The author is using self-reported surveys of STEM majors who didn't work for an SV company to answer the question of what SV companies are looking for. There are giant assumptions: 1) they wanted to work for an SV company 2) they're not deluding themselves about why they didn't get offered an SV job. A much better source would be to actually ask the SV companies why they didn't hire…

I'm more of an observer to the field, so I'm curious, what does a "bad" resume look like? And what kinds of things do you find on those few good ones? My assumptions are that everyone is applying with decent CS background and at least a BS in the field, or is that off?

The assumption that you can distinguish good and bad engineers through their resume is flawed. Some of the better engineers I've worked with didn't go to school. Some of the worst engineers I've worked with got advanced degrees at reputable schools.

The biggest secret in software is that we simply don't know how to teach software. Half of all graduates in all relevant programs, at all universities, are simply unhirable. Talented, second-year interns are more valuable than the median graduate.

We know how to take talented students and make them better, but we don't know how to identify talented students early, and we don't know how to make untalented students even barely competent.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's freelancing and remote work, which are less restricted. The flow of information between transacting parties is a fairly central problem of economics. It's believed to be why companies exist (since alternatively the logical end point for a perfect free market is a thin gas of individual, rational agents), and it explains the "Market for Lemons". Solving that problem preoccupies a large part of the economy. And…

> The flow of information between transacting parties is a fairly central problem of economics. The prevalence of spammers and scammers is how this manifests on freelancing sites. > the logical end point for a perfect free market is a thin gas of individual, rational agents Is that like, the "heat death" of the market economy? (Of capitalist society, actually.)

It's the end state of the basic models. Everyone works individually, all prices are perfectly set, profit averages 0% and so on.

It's only a model. Discovering why it's wrong has been very fruitful and instructive for economists.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#115

Given that immigration laws are import quotas, that the free market will fix things is a confused argument. There's no such free market in software engineering labour.

In order to usefully define a market you must define it as a closed system. Otherwise, you can push the price of anything at all to whatever you like simply by "importing" asymptotic quantities from "outside". By the same reasoning, the Second Law of Thermodynamics poses no problem for any creature living on Earth, because we can always import more energy from the Sun.

Nonsense. You can build a workable model, you just need to accept that any such model is imperfect.

Strictly speaking, "if you wish to build an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". Fine, but the rest of us have work to do and can cope with imperfect models.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#116
post #38

Of course if Silicon Valley CEOs were smart about immigration they wouldn't try jumping on the "comprehensive immigration reform" bandwagon. Or even pushing for an increase in the number of visas. Instead they should be pushing for a H1B salary floor in the 90k-100k range. This would allow them to claim the majority of the existing H1B pool, and it's hard to argue that jobs like "Food Service Manager" are jobs Americ…

This would never fly politically. "They want to give IMMIGRANTS six-figure jobs while Americans are unemployed???"

Australia's 457 visa program requires employers to pay foreign workers the same amount as a local worker, specifically to prevent downward pressure on wages.

Still, the politics are still fraught with TOOK EHR JERBS stuff.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#117
post #110
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the field getting an O visa can be exceptionally hard as they are intended for exceptional people. One of my clients has four or five employees with O visas and these people are all top of their field including a nobel laureate. You could easily be in the top 5% of your field and get rejected for an O.

Yes, that's the idea.

Sure, but most people here are not really talking about world class engineers.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#118
post #13

There's a big problem with the bar graph in the article. They are lumping Engineering Technology together with Engineering and Information sciences in with Computer Science. Engineering Technology is completely different from Engineering, just like CIS is completely different from Computer Science. Grouping those together is like grouping employment numbers for electrical engineers and electricians just because they…

I have an MIS degree and have had no trouble working alongside CS grads my entire career. Likewise for my family member with an Engineering Technology degree. I don't think there is that huge of a gap. It is still about getting your foot in the door and doing things on the job.

>I have an MIS degree and have had no trouble working alongside CS grads my entire career.

Sure, but how much of that has anything to do with your MIS degree.

Sure there are CIS majors who can program, and there are high school dropouts who can program as well. But CS degrees teach you how to program while CIS degrees do not. They prepare you for two completely different fields. Employment figures for Software developers and IT people are very different.

>Likewise for my family member with an Engineering Technology degree

Engineering Technology is also a different field. Again, sure there are people with engineering tech degrees that work as engineers and are paid like engineers, but the vast majority do not.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#119
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but this reasoning only goes so far. In order to pay all your engineers 500k/year, you'd have to absurdly profitable. Maybe MS and Google could pull that off, but most companies could not.

Then those other companies are not competitive and will wither away in a Capitalist economy. Problem solved. tl;dr: paying high salaries is becoming a competitive advantage.

Anti-poaching agreements between top tech giants notably Steve Jobs' Apple, Google, Adobe, Intel, Pixar, etc. clearly showed that the industry was willing to go to extraordinary lengths to prevent/minimize bidding wars against one another.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#120
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any idea when this was? He is a US citizen which takes a long time, so this must have been a while ago. Depending on when he was denied he could easily not met the qualifications.

It's been when he got job in Transmeta in early 2000s. At that time he has already been very well known. You obviously have not been involved in O visa process otherwise you'd known that the qualifications for O visa are chiefly publications (other qualifications would be academic awards, involvement with awarding those awards and such). So any PhD can get one while a programmer who is not into writing books and arti…

That seems indicate a flaw in the O visa process, in terms of its ability to recognize outstanding talent, rather than the need to expand a lottery based system not designed to bring the "best and brightest." A best and brightest program should also include a hard compensation floor. $120K is far from an elite level wage for a SV SW Engineer, but I suspect even that would be a non-starter for the interests lobbying for an expanded H1B program.
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