Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree • Hacker News Board

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#111

Post by nitrogen » Sun, May 26, 2013, 6:59 AM UTC

robomartin wrote: post #58

Fantastic. The OP scored. As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it might be cool and trendy to be a modern hippie-techie drinking latte's and coding for Google, Facebook or whoever. One day you might wake up in an entirely different landscape at thirty, fourty or fifty years of age and regret the fact that you did not take the time…

Don't be a moron. Get a degree.

People need to stop treating a "degree" as being equivalent to "an education." Instead of filtering by whether someone completed years of irrelevant, understimulating general education coursework, why not look at actual past performance and work sample tests? There needs to be an option for already "educated" people to bypass the process of getting a "degree".

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#112

Post by tracker1 » Sun, May 26, 2013, 7:23 AM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #85

robomartin wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am proposing that a degree becomes more important later on in life and that this is why one should obtain it as early as practical.

I suppose we half-agree then. I always figured that retirement was the perfect time to obtain a degree. Wise enough to respect the teachings and old enough to (hopefully) have the time and money to spend on such luxuries.

I wish that more schools had drop-in options for simply auditing courses... it is far less of an option now than 20-30 years ago. I'd much rather sit in on some history classes than take half of the classes required for a degree in anything relevant to my field of work. I'm not going to make more now, or in the near future... I've had my time in management, don't think I really want it again.

I see that a degree is really necessary for some.. and in some fields even more so... Most of the best programmers I've ever met are simply passionate about programming. Not about where their degree is from.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#113

Post by tracker1 » Sun, May 26, 2013, 7:28 AM UTC

robomartin wrote: post #74

randomdata wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't be a moron. Get a degree. According to the stats for my region, 56% of women and 45% of men start into a degree program, yet the degree attainment rate is only 25%. I find this attitude a little bit troubling when such a large percentage of the population are already trying and failing. Given the costs – actual and opportunity – involved, unless you are certain you are in the top ~25% of students and can deri…

So long as you are willing to work way down the pay scale, sure. I am merely describing what I think is important in technical fields based on what I have seen around me over the years. I know a guy with enough college credit for four degrees. Never completed the requirements for any one degree. It was incredibly difficult for him to get a job as he got older. A degree would have opened a lot of doors. You go from ha…

That's odd, I have no degree, and other than my first few jobs doing programming work, I don't think I've had much issue at all finding work... Generally at very senior developer roles for the past decade. I spend a lot of time reading, and learning... constantly picking up new things.

Then again, I always feel like I don't know enough, though I know far more than a lot of my peers... It just depends. I tried running my own business for a while, and failed. I also worked at a director level for a while, didn't like the stress. It really depends on what you are looking for.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#114

Post by tytung2020 » Sun, May 26, 2013, 7:33 AM UTC

I have a Physics and Maths background, NO programming skills.

But I like industrial design, and two years ago had created a few designs that anticipated products/patents/concepts that companies like Microsoft, Nokia, Apple announced only recently.

I wonder if Google would like to hire people like me, especially since now they are also building hardware?

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#115

Post by megablast » Sun, May 26, 2013, 8:00 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #111

robomartin wrote: post #58

Fantastic. The OP scored. As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it might be cool and trendy to be a modern hippie-techie drinking latte's and coding for Google, Facebook or whoever. One day you might wake up in an entirely different landscape at thirty, fourty or fifty years of age and regret the fact that you did not take the time…

Don't be a moron. Get a degree. People need to stop treating a "degree" as being equivalent to "an education." Instead of filtering by whether someone completed years of irrelevant, understimulating general education coursework, why not look at actual past performance and work sample tests? There needs to be an option for already "educated" people to bypass the process of getting a "degree".

Can you think of a better single, instant indicator that someone is educated?

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#116

Post by tracker1 » Sun, May 26, 2013, 8:03 AM UTC

btilly wrote: post #109

mwfunk wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're not curious, you're just passive-aggressively pointing out that you don't think programming is engineering, but phrasing it in such a way as to make it sound like this is some universal truth that everyone accepts. Anyway, the answer is because it is engineering. Not in the capital "E" sense of engineering where you have some sort of official certification from some governmental or professional body that s…

But there is an insanely huge difference. When a credentialed engineer puts their signature to the statement that a particular design is sound, the engineer is liable. Not the company. The engineer. If that bridge collapses, the engineer can be sued. And if the company cannot find an engineer who is willing to sign, that bridge cannot be built. This is very important. Before we instituted this system, the USA had an…

Programming CAN be a system of Engineering (and often is wrt medical and weapon systems). Most programming is done as a craft in businesses, with business needs that reward turn around time and coming in under budget more than ruggedness, or real maintainability.

In a more corporate environment, it tends to favor the use of "Architecture" roles, and the use of many different design patterns even when they are not necessary and only add complexity in the name of "consistency" with other "enterprise" implementations.

Just the same, most software development is a model of crafting, not engineering. The exceptions to this tend to be with designing software that works with physical devices for a given role, not generic computing devices that are virtual representations of business logic.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#117

Post by tracker1 » Sun, May 26, 2013, 8:10 AM UTC

6d0debc071 wrote: post #22

mseebach wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a good developer in any language is pretty transferable. Google isn't going to care if you have to fumble for a few weeks getting comfortable with the syntax. The important bit is being a good developer, not which language.

Just a warning that, at least in the UK, I've heard that many companies do want you to know a list of quite specific programming languages and advertise for a programmer that does X language with Y years experience in it, rather than going after the computational knowledge side of things. So, you know, just check what you're going for first if you're still at the making decisions about what to learn stage. Can't spea…

That happens enough in the U.S. as well. More often as many positions are being actively driven/searched by consulting companies (temp/placement agencies for IT/Software).

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#118

Post by aortega » Sun, May 26, 2013, 8:45 AM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #83

aortega wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was when Donald Knuth wrote that, 50 years ago. Nowadays it is engineering. It is desirable for a programmer to build software, within a specific time, specific cost and certain specs. 100% Engineering. Now this is valid for 99% of software jobs out there. You will always find some company that does software research, but it's the 1%.

I do agree that software development is many parts engineering, but I believe that farming is engineering to the same extent (I do both, so I have an intimate knowledge of how they compare). Imagine a farmer calling himself an agricultural engineer. It is part of the nomenclature now, so it is what it is, but I don't see what was wrong with the previous "programmer" or "software developer" titles. The engineering par…

Indeed, in some countries (like mine) calling yourself an engineer while not having the real degree it's illegal, even if it's your job description.

Incidentally, here (Argentina) we have the equivalent of farming engineer, called "Ingeniero Agrónomo". It's a very common career choice, and well paid.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#119

Post by nitrogen » Sun, May 26, 2013, 8:58 AM UTC

megablast wrote: post #115

nitrogen wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be a moron. Get a degree. People need to stop treating a "degree" as being equivalent to "an education." Instead of filtering by whether someone completed years of irrelevant, understimulating general education coursework, why not look at actual past performance and work sample tests? There needs to be an option for already "educated" people to bypass the process of getting a "degree".

Can you think of a better single, instant indicator that someone is educated?

Why do you need a single, instant indicator that isn't even reliable? Once again, degree ≠ education.

I did use the word educated in my last sentence, but the point I intended to convey is that instead of asking whether someone is "educated," employers and hyperjudgmental social peers should ask whether they're capable of doing their job and participating in an interesting conversation.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#120

Post by charleslmunger » Sun, May 26, 2013, 9:40 AM UTC

By comparison, here were my steps to Google: 1. Attend a 4 year state school, majoring in computer science. 2. Enroll in mixed bachelors/masters program. 3. Apply for job at Google, pass interviews. 4. Graduate.

I'm saying this because for nearly EVERYONE getting a bachelors degree is the correct path, and if you can get into a program that will let you do a masters degree in less than the usual 2 years then it's a great idea. Less risk, same reward. My high school GPA wasn't quite as bad as OP's, but I had a 2.7.