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Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

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Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#111

Post by downandout »

nisa wrote: post #102
downandout wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI whomever is downvoting this - you can downvote it all you want. It doesn't make it any less true. I'll take the hit on my karma points on the off chance it makes someone think, even for a second, about not perpetrating the selfish act of cruelty that is bringing a child into an impoverished existence.

See you on the other side of this discussion if you loose your wealth and your job for whatever reasons. You'll enjoy beeing jugded by your own words. Empathy and social justice are crucial for any society that wants to be respected. You are proposing barbary. Social Darwinism.

I am dealing with reality.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#112

Post by pi18n »

downandout wrote: post #19

This speaks to a larger problem: The world simply doesn't need many of the people born into it. Parents in the US have children for recreational purposes - child birth rates do not fluctuate with the demand for labor. These kids grow up, and many of them wind up sleeping on the streets of their chosen city or more commonly just barely living paycheck-to-paycheck, because there is no societal need for them. This bears…

You are probably right that impoverished parents are going to have a hard time raising children, but you are also advocating a form of social Darwinism.

I agree that fewer people should procreate but disagree with measuring the necessity of a person by net worth. The vast majority of wealth being accumulated by a few persons surely skews the demand for labor as we have many Fords but not many laborers paid enough to buy Ford's cars.

I said I think fewer children would be good, I just don't know which group of people should stop having children. I guess all of them should tone it down.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#113

Post by peterjancelis »

brown9-2 wrote: post #76
jiggy2011 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then wouldn't businesses who sell a lot of goods to people on the minimum income just put their prices up to force the gov to increase the minimum income at above inflation rates every year? You also still have the problem of people like drug addicts who spend all of their minimum income on drugs/drink/gambling and are still left homeless.

I would imagine the smartest way to implement such a thing would be to index the amount of money to a basket of goods, much like the way in which inflation is calculated.

I think a more sustainable way, if you want to implement a basic income, would be to have a low flat tax (say 10%) on all types of income, than divide the tax revenue across all citizens. That way everybody will cheer on the capitalists.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#114

Post by bradleyjg »

madaxe wrote: post #9

"Last night, someone told me “In California, there isn’t a conflict between being a Capitalist, and a Liberal”, with a wry grin on his face." Of course there isn't. Liberalism in its purest form (as espoused by Hayek, say) is, in effect, free market capitalism with a light but universally applicable (no "special cases", as those lead to totalitarianism) set of regulations to prevent bad actors (e.g. hey, let's put he…

It's ironic that during a rant on the populist meaning of 'liberal' overwhelming the classic one, you do the exact same thing with 'corporatist'.

Corporatism isn't a nation with a lot of powerful business corporations, it was a proto-fascist ideological movement in the syndicalist tradition.

Ref: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/138442/corporatism

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#115

Post by beat »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #58
beat wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_guarantee The solution is simple. You simply give every adult citizen enough money every year to insure that they can afford food, shelter, and other basic needs. Give it to everyone, rich or poor, same amount. BAM! No more poverty, except in self-inflicted cases (drug addiction, for example), or things like severe and very expensive illness (which are covered by other means)…

But then wouldn't businesses who sell a lot of goods to people on the minimum income just put their prices up to force the gov to increase the minimum income at above inflation rates every year? You also still have the problem of people like drug addicts who spend all of their minimum income on drugs/drink/gambling and are still left homeless.

And wouldn't some other business step in then and undersell them? Supply and demand, man.

And yes, there would still be people who blew their GMI money on drugs and wound up homeless. And there would still be charities to help them.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#117

Post by regis »

misc_closet wrote: post #90
regis wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think many people choose being homeless over giving into the pressures of our society like having to sustain a job in order to pay rent and go out for dinner etc... and all that stuff that 'normal' people desire. I've met homeless people that split their time between SF and some hills near Santa Cruz and only come into the city to sell some hash or hang out ith friends for a couple of days... but yes there are also…

Are you aware that we live in a period of peak unemployment? There are literally millions of people who want jobs. The jobs were all made obsolete by Silicon Valley. The safety net was shredded by Silicon Valley-style neoliberal ethics based on Ayn Rand.

Yeah I am aware of that, but that doesn't mean that there aren't also people who don't want to work. I would love to not work and just enjoy life while I can, but I can't because I have bought into this idea that having extra money for shelter, food and other junk makes life more enjoyable... some people haven't bought into this that are struggling to enjoy their lives outside of the crazy whirlwind of packaged desires.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#119

Post by josefresco »

downandout wrote: post #19

This speaks to a larger problem: The world simply doesn't need many of the people born into it. Parents in the US have children for recreational purposes - child birth rates do not fluctuate with the demand for labor. These kids grow up, and many of them wind up sleeping on the streets of their chosen city or more commonly just barely living paycheck-to-paycheck, because there is no societal need for them. This bears…

"Parents in the US have children for recreational purposes" Really?!? I don't know a single parent who would list or even hint that they needed "recreation" when deciding to have a child. Let's assume you were half-joking, I still don't see having kids as something anyone takes lightly no matter what country you are born in. "child birth rates do not fluctuate with the demand for labor" Another horrible reason to have kids. I hope this isn't your metric for deciding upon your prior statement about recreation. Just because the US doesn't need the labor, does not mean parents are having kids "recreational". Kids are not a tool of society that should be effected by labor output.

Also the numbers on net worth most likely take into account home values that have recently fallen off a cliff. While it's still accurate to say that most people have a zero or negative net worth you can't assume the value of the home/amount owed on the mortgage will always be static.

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