I'm tired • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm tired

#111

Post by banachtarski » Wed, Apr 03, 2013, 1:51 AM UTC

tiredofcareer wrote: post #84

banachtarski wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notice to the individual need not be overtly public-facing. It could just be a dialog between the conference committee (who should care about the quality of its attendees) and the person in question. I personally would also prefer less public vitriol everywhere.

Okay, sure, but at that point why not just do it yourself? You're basically saying "I can't handle this myself, can you talk to the guy for me?"

Who's the "you" in your sentence?

The original poster? I really don't understand the point of your comment. Bars have bouncers for a reason.

Re: I'm tired

#112

Post by bigiain » Wed, Apr 03, 2013, 1:55 AM UTC

richforrester wrote: post #16

famousactress wrote: post #2

I hate that feeling.. the knowledge that engaging in the discussion is going to be exhausting and the chance of making traction is slim, and the feeling that inaction is the only reasonable alternative. Allow me to suggest another alternative to actual discussion in situations like this: Tell the person to fuck off. I'm serious. It registers disagreement, and to any rational person the lack of interest in attempting…

For a bit of nuance, instead of "fuck off", you could try something like "I disagree, but I'm pretty tired of that conversation", and change the topic. Statement made, stupid comment brushed off, nobody got hurt. The whole "down to their level and beat you with experience" thing comes to mind.

If you can pull it off, something like "Really? I thought you were smarter than that…" works pretty well. You kinda need to be able to dominate the conversation with the comment though (which is often pretty easy if it's just one jerk speaking out of place, but can be much harder if they've got an audience-of-idiots laughing along with them).

One thing to keep on mind - the "offender" has given up any expectation or right of politeness or manners extended towards them - there's no need to craft a response that doesn't hurt their feelings, since they've already gone down that path. (I suspect if I were just the right amount of uninhibitedly drunk, I'd quite enjoy responding to "She only got the tickets 'cause of her tits" with "Yeah, that's what everyone with a tiny dick says…")

Re: I'm tired

#113

Post by bigiain » Wed, Apr 03, 2013, 2:06 AM UTC

noobface wrote: post #74

You know what I'm tired of: condescension. The guy who was making sexist statements is ignorant, not a "fucking loser." How do you make these situations positive for everyone? Empathy. Empathy for all sides. Everyone exposed to this kind of social ignorance is a victim if you dig deep enough. In the tech world we are quick to call users idiots, each other inept, ideas retarded... I ask for empathy. Empathy for this o…

"Calling him names makes us no different from him"

In my opinion, you've missed one very important detail. He's only getting "called names" in response to his "offensive guy" actions. Nobody involved in this conversation would have said a single word, good _or_ bad about the guy, except for the fact that he chose to publicly be a sexist jerk and intentionally offend someone in a social situation.

I _do_ feel empathy for people with poorly developed social skills - having been there myself and having friends and colleagues in the same boat (as I suspect most of us in this industry/profession do), BUT, if you've made it to 20 or 25 years old without having worked out that accusing a female of ony having accomplished something "because TITS!", you're clearly in need of stronger education techniques than "encouraging growth through understanding" - I'm not advocating punching him in the face, but if he were a puppy I'd be whacking him on the nose with a newspaper. Social imposition and public shaming are _entirely_ appropriate tools to deal with adults who make comments like he did.

Re: I'm tired

#114

Post by zalew » Wed, Apr 03, 2013, 2:14 AM UTC

bazzargh wrote: post #100

zalew wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> she gets rape threats every game release seriously, the internet is a big rape threat. are there any smart people that treat random anon trolling seriously? (except opportunists and journalists that by occasion use such crap as a 'proof' of whatever)

Whether you treat it seriously (as in, call the police) depends on the level of implied threat. But are you really just saying ignore it? Think about the spam you get. It's a little annoying. Now think if all of that was threats directed at you. It's not just about whether you take them all seriously, it's whether this constant drumbeat of abuse gets to you. Would you still love your dream job after a year of that? W…

a few years ago, a member of our national female volleyball team resigned from sport because somebody on the internet, anonymously, wrote she has fat legs (at least that was her official statement). the question is not if a woman has the right to get her feelings hurt, but whether empowering the trolls by admitting publically you very much care what they write is an effective thing to do in fighting this behavior.

btw rape threats that show a slight chance of being 'real' (say, not a frustrated teenager or drunk idiot from the other side of the globe) should be reported, even just for the sake of it. that said, knowing certain aspects of the gaming community, I imagine there is a bigger chance of the latter.

> Women deserve better.

I agree.

> it's blaming the victim.

hold your horses, I never did that.

Re: I'm tired

#115

Post by bigiain » Wed, Apr 03, 2013, 2:14 AM UTC

GhotiFish wrote: post #97

bcoates wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the part where the OP says he didn't confront the guy but wishes he did.

That's the thing, if things had happened as the OP said, the reaction from any of the human beings I know would of being proportionately extreme. Something is just a bit surreal here.

Really? You don't see around you the "bro-grammer" culture, and the promo girls at tech trade shows? While, like you, I like to think I surround myself with like-minded rational people - and I honestly think I manage to do that in my social/friendship circles - it's _abundantly_ clear that there's many many people in programming/tech profession that'd laugh along with the comment related in the story.

I think your skepticism is misplaced.

Re: I'm tired

#116

Post by jdbernard » Wed, Apr 03, 2013, 2:19 AM UTC

tiredofcareer wrote: post #89

danso wrote: post #43

This was painful to read. It's hard to get into the usual is-there-sexism-in-tech-or-not debate because this is so beyond the pale-dysfunctional. First, that anyone could say such a thing in polite company. Second, that the rest of the table did not demand the offending person to leave. Seriously, how is anyone, espicially the targeted woman, expected to enjoy their dinner and have a non-awkward conversation after th…

> But leaving out of protest is always an option. Why should I ruin my evening due to this guy? What exactly are you protesting? Do you think this kind of person gives a shit if you walk away? Do you think the entire rest of the table will follow you? (Answer: No.) Stand up to him and resolve it; if no progress is made and it turns ugly, that person is no longer welcome at your table and you move on. I laid out a tem…

It is not your dinner. It is everyone at that table's dinner, troll's included. And you seem to be stuck on ejecting him from the table. If the majority of the table agrees with you you can probably shame him into leaving. How are you going to do that if you don't have that consensus or if he refuses? Are you going to get physical?

I would probably try to make him leave first, but failing that, walking away is the appropriate choice. You are passing judgment, in a way, on the whole party when you do this. You are saying that this behavior is not acceptable in your company and if the present company disagrees then this is important enough for you to remove yourself from that company because it is not something you can tolerate.

We cannot force people to be polite or even tolerant. We can choose who we keep company with.

Re: I'm tired

#117

Post by reeses » Wed, Apr 03, 2013, 2:39 AM UTC

danielweber wrote: post #109

tiredofcareer wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But leaving out of protest is always an option. Why should I ruin my evening due to this guy? What exactly are you protesting? Do you think this kind of person gives a shit if you walk away? Do you think the entire rest of the table will follow you? (Answer: No.) Stand up to him and resolve it; if no progress is made and it turns ugly, that person is no longer welcome at your table and you move on. I laid out a tem…

Do you think the entire rest of the table will follow you? (Answer: No.) It can happen. It takes some guts and if you don't have the social capital with this group you may not be able to pull it off. Everyone goes to a new table but leaves the dickhead sitting there.

There is no downside to leaving the table. I have two axes, based on the reaction of the douchebags and of the others at the table. There are no neutral parties.

1) Douchebags may think you're a 'fag' - You win, they are still douchebags and you are not around douchebags.

2) Douchebags may get embarrassed - You win, they may think before douching again and you are not around douchebags.

3) Douchebags may apologize (assume sincerely), ceasing to be douchebags - You win, the table can return to normal conversation, and you are not around douchebags.

A) Others stay at the table, giving you no support - You win, you have upheld the virtue of equality, you have taken the measure of people you thought were not douchebags, and you are not around douchebags.

B) Others stay at the table, telling douchebags that they were over the line - You win, you have encouraged dissent, and you are not around douchebags.

C) Others leave the table or restaurant - You win, you have led others to take an affirmative stand against the douchebags, and you are not around douchebags.

D) Others follow you to a different table or restaurant - You win, you have led others to take an affirmative stand against the douchebags, you can have a conversation without shouting (unless it's because Tottenham are CRUSHING Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U, or Arsenal) and you are not around douchebags.

The important thing is making your stand there and then. It takes chutzpah, but the more you work it, the stronger it gets.

Re: I'm tired

#118

Post by noobface » Wed, Apr 03, 2013, 2:41 AM UTC

bcoates wrote: post #105

noobface wrote: post #74

You know what I'm tired of: condescension. The guy who was making sexist statements is ignorant, not a "fucking loser." How do you make these situations positive for everyone? Empathy. Empathy for all sides. Everyone exposed to this kind of social ignorance is a victim if you dig deep enough. In the tech world we are quick to call users idiots, each other inept, ideas retarded... I ask for empathy. Empathy for this o…

While I'm not going to argue against empathy in general, registering some blunt disapproval is less of a bullying behavior than saying nothing and passive-aggressively excluding someone, which seems to be the runner-up suggestion in the thread. Drawing moral equivalence between participating in hostility against women and hostility against the rude and ignorant is a bit of a stretch, too.

Registering blunt disapproval may stop the behavior temporarily, but what caused it in the first place? It can't be entirely due to a general passive acceptance of such statements.

Our approach to ending racism was similar, and it was effectual, but over a great period of time incorporating generations of ignorance.

However, there were individuals who managed to help end the passive acceptance of racism by taking a vested interest in changing the thinking of one individual, all without guilting them into compliance.

Exhibit A. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B24qxWPPVbM

The NAACP president of Oklahoma, Wade Watts convinced the imperial wizard of a national KKK organization to reconsider his perspective on race. Rev. Watts did not accomplish this through expressing disgust or disapproval, but through patience and empathy. Johnny Lee Carly was swayed from imperial wizard to anti-racism activist. Wade saved Johnny's progeny from harboring the same ignorance, accomplishing in a single generation what had previously taken acts of congress, violence, protest and over a hundred years of blunt disapproval.

I'm not saying Wade's approach is the only way to accomplish a means to societal change, but it can change the perspective of an individual.

Re: I'm tired

#119

Post by verbalist » Wed, Apr 03, 2013, 2:45 AM UTC

Wait, nobody's even bringing up the fact that maybe the game developer didn't get the pass on merit alone? Yeah, the comment was rude (people are rude everywhere, always), but maybe he had a point.

Re: I'm tired

#120

Post by mlent » Wed, Apr 03, 2013, 2:46 AM UTC

kunai wrote: post #94

famousactress wrote: post #2

I hate that feeling.. the knowledge that engaging in the discussion is going to be exhausting and the chance of making traction is slim, and the feeling that inaction is the only reasonable alternative. Allow me to suggest another alternative to actual discussion in situations like this: Tell the person to fuck off. I'm serious. It registers disagreement, and to any rational person the lack of interest in attempting…

Tell the person to fuck off. Okay, I may get many downvotes here, but this doesn't seem like the solution to the problem. Rudeness and insults are rudeness and insults. Cursing doesn't help the matter. Inaction is not the solution either, but I'm sure there's a more mature way to handle things. Asking the party to leave politely is better than keeping your mouth shut, and it also seems better than cursing them out. O…

It probably depends on the person. With a guy who uses phrases like "because tits", "fuck off" might be the only thing that makes it through his thick skull.