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How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

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Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#111

Post by primitur »

btilly wrote: post #109
primitur wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genetically transmitted brain chemistry may well be involved, but sleep is necessary for all kinds of brain chemistry, too. You can't have one without the other, perhaps .. perhaps, the reason we have the genetic scenario now, is precisely because lack-of-sleep, or at least sleep-culture-effecting-brains, has been an environmental factor over the period of our evolution where such things mattered. I think the entire…

You have completely missed the point. Sleep is good. Get sleep. But people who actually have ADHD do not simply lack sleep. End. Of. Story. Your speculation of lack-of-sleep being the cause of ADHD is laughably wrong. If it were true, then my son wouldn't have the disorder.

Its always those who have ADHD, or who somehow profit from its existence, who defend the condition vehemently, while those who question the science behind its diagnoses are always considered 'wrong' because 'mainstream society has accepted that ADHD is a cultural normality'. Well, in some societies anyway - there are plenty of places still left in the world where childrens' behaviours are not incorrectly assumed to be 'faulty, as a result of some flaw' just because the adults can't handle them, or because of some other cultural normative being applied from beyond the fringe of industrialized mental health practictioners.

But I would say to you this: there are other ways to deal with your problems than to form a dependency with a pharmaceutical company and a consumer-dependent relationship on other high preists of industrialized medicine. I know you won't accept that, given your position on the matter is pretty clear that of one who has succumbed to the problem, but the point of view that ADHD diagnoses and treatment is overly exagerated is an equally valid one.

Your son has a 'disorder' described to you by your high priests. However, maybe he just needs a better way of life, a healthier diet, more interaction, more outside time, less participation in a caustic, chemical society. You wouldn't know that, unless you tried to exceed the imposition of cultural 'normality' imposed on you by your society, by, frankly, leaving it behind.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#112

Post by j-kidd »

tomflack wrote: post #110
j-kidd wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to get one of this http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/黄帝内经 and knock yourself out.

While 我一点儿回看中文 I hope you appreciate that a poorly referenced Chinese wikipedia article isn't really a contribution to this conversation.

The article is about how little study has been done about sleep:

> One of the biggest problems I’ve discovered is that sleep is such an over talked topic. We get the general idea that we know all about it: how much we need of it, how it impacts us and why this or that happens when we sleep. Once I took a step back to really think about where our knowledge about sleep comes from, I realized that nearly all of it is based on hear-say or what my mom told me when I was in elementary school.

I was merely quoting some well-known wisdom (among Chinese) (but not well-followed) from an old book [1] written based on actual clinical experiences. And it also happens to support fakeer's suggestion. If that's not up to some scientific standards, at least it is one step above "hear-say" and "what my mom told me", don't you think?

This is such a complicated subject, and I doubt there has been any concrete study that can conclusively prove anything. For me, the point of the article is to provoke exactly this kind of discussion.

[1] That's what the wikipedia article is about.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#113

Post by j-kidd »

tomflack wrote: post #110
j-kidd wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to get one of this http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/黄帝内经 and knock yourself out.

While 我一点儿回看中文 I hope you appreciate that a poorly referenced Chinese wikipedia article isn't really a contribution to this conversation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_discoveries

Scroll down and look for Circadian rhythm.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#115

Post by btilly »

primitur wrote: post #111
btilly wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have completely missed the point. Sleep is good. Get sleep. But people who actually have ADHD do not simply lack sleep. End. Of. Story. Your speculation of lack-of-sleep being the cause of ADHD is laughably wrong. If it were true, then my son wouldn't have the disorder.

Its always those who have ADHD, or who somehow profit from its existence, who defend the condition vehemently, while those who question the science behind its diagnoses are always considered 'wrong' because 'mainstream society has accepted that ADHD is a cultural normality'. Well, in some societies anyway - there are plenty of places still left in the world where childrens' behaviours are not incorrectly assumed to b…

Your son has a 'disorder' described to you by your high priests. However, maybe he just needs a better way of life, a healthier diet, more interaction, more outside time, less participation in a caustic, chemical society. You wouldn't know that, unless you tried to exceed the imposition of cultural 'normality' imposed on you by your society, by, frankly, leaving it behind.

You have absolutely no idea of how much of an asshole you are being right now. You have your opinion, absolutely no facts about my personal situation, are making a ton of assumptions, and yet think that YOU have the right to lecture ME on this subject.

For the record, my son gets a much healthier diet than is standard in our society. He gets several hours outside every day. We have never had a working TV in his life. As he has grown we have allowed him movies - typically under 4 hours per week. He goes for regular hikes. Yes, we use medicine, but only the minimum necessary to affect his ability to pay attention in school hours.

When he is not on medication, the following sequence is common. I can address him by name, he looks at me, and I tell him to put his socks and shoes on. This repeats 3x at 2 minute intervals. His socks and shoes remain not on, and when I ask him to tell me what I've been asking him to do he honestly doesn't know that I want him to put on socks and shoes. Not because he's malicious, but because he simply was lost in his thoughts.

Yes, that is a culture-specific requirement. But if he was being raised in a "natural hunting/gathering society" he'd be the kid who gets eaten by a tiger because he was too busy looking at a spider to watch out.

Now you may think that there isn't a problem here. But I'm the parent here, you're the stranger, you know nothing about my situation, and it is my job to decide what measures are required to make sure that he grows up to be able to survive in society to my satisfaction. So, in all honesty, it is time for you to fuck off.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#116

Post by primitur »

btilly wrote: post #115
primitur wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its always those who have ADHD, or who somehow profit from its existence, who defend the condition vehemently, while those who question the science behind its diagnoses are always considered 'wrong' because 'mainstream society has accepted that ADHD is a cultural normality'. Well, in some societies anyway - there are plenty of places still left in the world where childrens' behaviours are not incorrectly assumed to b…

Your son has a 'disorder' described to you by your high priests. However, maybe he just needs a better way of life, a healthier diet, more interaction, more outside time, less participation in a caustic, chemical society. You wouldn't know that, unless you tried to exceed the imposition of cultural 'normality' imposed on you by your society, by, frankly, leaving it behind. You have absolutely no idea of how much of a…

Oh, I have a perfectly good idea of how much of an asshole I was being. I'm a total stranger on the Internet and I have no clue about you and your circumstance beyond what you yourself proffer. That is the simple truth.

But look, you put your personal life on the line with this discussion. Did you do that in order to gain sympathy, compassion, understanding .. from an Internet stranger?

Or did you bring your son into this discussion for the sake of winning an argument about social normatives as 'an authority', having read the books, bought the drugs, gotten with the program?

I think you should examine your motives on that.

My personal position is that anyone who drugs their child, for whatever reason, is as much a part of the problem as the perceived 'malady' of the child. Thats my personal opinion - like you have your personal experiences, I have mine too. You can tread on my opinion if you like - after all you are just as much of an internet stranger with the potential to be an asshole as I am. I have absolutely no problems with being called names for having an unpopular opinion (although, careful with the name-calling: you might get us both hell-banned).

>to be able to survive in society to my satisfaction.

So you've chosen your path, as a parent, and I've chosen mine as a parent as well: two boys, neither will ever get anywhere near anyone who might consider industrialized mental health 'solutions' such as drugging them, as a means of imposing society's cultural norms, because my boys don't 'behave' per the standard set for them. Thats just simply not going to happen. I'll live with the consequences of my decision, just as you have lived with yours. To me, your chosen path seems like its more for your sake than theirs, since it is you who is having the communication difficulties, but again: I don't know all the facts. I won't judge you as I have no right..

I urge you, however, to reconsider just how much you truly know about the subject, and how much you've been told to think about the subject without questioning the authorities in power. All humans deserve a chance: drugging children at an early age because they don't meet societys' standards, is in my opinion worse than the so-called symptoms. Not to mention there is a lot of profit being made from legally drugging children in this world today.

Just an opinion from a random internet asshole. Nice chatting with you. I wish you all the best, and your son a happy and productive life, as he sees fit.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#117

Post by btilly »

primitur wrote: post #116
btilly wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your son has a 'disorder' described to you by your high priests. However, maybe he just needs a better way of life, a healthier diet, more interaction, more outside time, less participation in a caustic, chemical society. You wouldn't know that, unless you tried to exceed the imposition of cultural 'normality' imposed on you by your society, by, frankly, leaving it behind. You have absolutely no idea of how much of a…

Oh, I have a perfectly good idea of how much of an asshole I was being. I'm a total stranger on the Internet and I have no clue about you and your circumstance beyond what you yourself proffer. That is the simple truth. But look, you put your personal life on the line with this discussion. Did you do that in order to gain sympathy, compassion, understanding .. from an Internet stranger? Or did you bring your son into…

I brought my son in to provide personal experience demonstrating that your guess about lack of sleep is completely wrong.

Every guess you've made since about how my family resembles your stereotype of a family that would medicate has been laughably wrong. I don't know what you think you know, or why you think you know it, but you've demonstrated a complete inability to acknowledge any experiential input. In light of that grotesque failure, I suggest that you question your own firmly held opinions. Because so far you're batting 0.

Here is another mistake of yours: if I was medicating my son for my sake, I'd medicate him every day, rather than arranging for him to be under the influence of medication only for the periods that he's in the classroom. In fact the main benefit that I have received so far is that I no longer have to comfort him while he's crying about how frustrating school was for him.

I hope for your children's sake that they never require assistance that you're unwilling to consider for them. Luckily most don't, so their odds are pretty good. But I'm sure that if you get the average result, you'll take all of the credit for them doing expectedly well.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#118

Post by primitur »

btilly wrote: post #117
primitur wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I have a perfectly good idea of how much of an asshole I was being. I'm a total stranger on the Internet and I have no clue about you and your circumstance beyond what you yourself proffer. That is the simple truth. But look, you put your personal life on the line with this discussion. Did you do that in order to gain sympathy, compassion, understanding .. from an Internet stranger? Or did you bring your son into…

I brought my son in to provide personal experience demonstrating that your guess about lack of sleep is completely wrong. Every guess you've made since about how my family resembles your stereotype of a family that would medicate has been laughably wrong. I don't know what you think you know, or why you think you know it, but you've demonstrated a complete inability to acknowledge any experiential input. In light of…

>I brought my son in to provide personal experience demonstrating that your guess about lack of sleep is completely wrong.

On the basis of a single data point.

>I hope for your children's sake that they never require assistance that you're unwilling to consider for them. Luckily most don't, so their odds are pretty good.

.. but then again, this is groupthink at its finest. Are you religious by any chance?

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#119

Post by btilly »

primitur wrote: post #118
btilly wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I brought my son in to provide personal experience demonstrating that your guess about lack of sleep is completely wrong. Every guess you've made since about how my family resembles your stereotype of a family that would medicate has been laughably wrong. I don't know what you think you know, or why you think you know it, but you've demonstrated a complete inability to acknowledge any experiential input. In light of…

>I brought my son in to provide personal experience demonstrating that your guess about lack of sleep is completely wrong. On the basis of a single data point. >I hope for your children's sake that they never require assistance that you're unwilling to consider for them. Luckily most don't, so their odds are pretty good. .. but then again, this is groupthink at its finest. Are you religious by any chance?

Are you religious by any chance?

You continue striking out. I'm an atheist.

But you seem to be the kind of atheist that gives the rest of us a bad name.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#120

Post by primitur »

btilly wrote: post #119
primitur wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I brought my son in to provide personal experience demonstrating that your guess about lack of sleep is completely wrong. On the basis of a single data point. >I hope for your children's sake that they never require assistance that you're unwilling to consider for them. Luckily most don't, so their odds are pretty good. .. but then again, this is groupthink at its finest. Are you religious by any chance?

Are you religious by any chance? You continue striking out. I'm an atheist. But you seem to be the kind of atheist that gives the rest of us a bad name.

You want to insult, I want to enlighten. My how times change.
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