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Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#111

Post by toyg »

marknutter wrote: post #100

This fine would only make sense if Microsoft prevented users from installing a different browser. Consider an analogy: let's say there's a power company who runs a monopoly on generating electricity. They also provide natural gas services to their customers. There is, however, a bunch of other smaller natural gas companies just a phone call away that people can buy natural gas from; all you have to do is call them an…

You don't understand the context. MS did indeed prevent OEMs from installing another browser; it's like they were forcing house builders (which have to use electricity) to connect only their own gas services to new houses.

And for that sin, MS will keep paying for a long time; they're basically an ATM for the EU now. This is not great but hey, they do have a history; once a felon, forever a felon, so to speak.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#112

Post by marknutter »

toyg wrote: post #111
marknutter wrote: post #100

This fine would only make sense if Microsoft prevented users from installing a different browser. Consider an analogy: let's say there's a power company who runs a monopoly on generating electricity. They also provide natural gas services to their customers. There is, however, a bunch of other smaller natural gas companies just a phone call away that people can buy natural gas from; all you have to do is call them an…

You don't understand the context. MS did indeed prevent OEMs from installing another browser; it's like they were forcing house builders (which have to use electricity) to connect only their own gas services to new houses. And for that sin, MS will keep paying for a long time; they're basically an ATM for the EU now. This is not great but hey, they do have a history; once a felon, forever a felon, so to speak.

But that doesn't fit with the analogy. Downloading and installing a third party browser is next to effortless. Who cares if the OEMs didn't install them? In my analogy the third party gas companies had to send out a technician to install their service, but could presumably do that free of charge to entice the customers to switch to their service.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#113

Post by toyg »

masklinn wrote: post #24
qntmfred wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they did on iOS (for a while). Safari is bundled with iOS

> they did on iOS (for a while). No. Apple never had a super-majority (or even a majority) of the smartphone marketshare, let alone in the EU where Symbian and BB historically held strong marketshares during iOS's tenure. iOS's best has been 30~40% in some european country (not even EU-wide). Although it does capture the vast majority of profits, but that's not really relevant to antitrust-type cases. I believe Samsu…

One has to wonder whether the whole "elitist" strategy from Apple isn't, in fact, a way to avoid the sort of responsibilities Microsoft took on, both towards developers, the "enterprise" community and the wider population.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#114

Post by MichaelApproved »

powertower wrote: post #80
MichaelApproved wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're misunderstanding. The problem is that Microsoft is using its OS monopoly to try and create another one. These special anticompetetive triggers only come into effect when the company has a monopoly. To be more clear, there is noting illegal about HAVING a monopoly. It's what you do WITH a monopoly that matters. If you don't have a monopoly, you're much less restricted with what you can do. To correct you analog…

Since when couldn't you just open IE and download your browser of choice? The browser ballot is BS imposed by bureaucrats.

Back in the day, Netscape charged for their browser. You couldn't just download your browser, you had to pay. Even though IE wasn't as good, people stuck with it because it was the free option that was already there.

Never mind that even if a browser is free, alternative browsers face substantial friction. Many users don't even understand what a browser actually is.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#115

Post by hodr »

vidarh wrote: post #98
meaty wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is still an issue for a lot of people who depend on them.

That's an issue those people would need to take up with Microsoft if Microsoft decides to risk their business over this. If they don't pay, they will have assets frozen, just as any other company or individual that refuse to pay their fines. Simple as that.

I know they will back down, but it makes me wonder; what if they didn't?

Could a business, a corporation, go to war against another entity. Countries go to war all the time and while it may be "illegal", it's only the loser that has to suffer the consequences.

What if Microsoft just decided screw it, and flipped a magic switch somewhere and shut down the entire EU infrastructure. No OS, no web servers, no SQL, no sharepoint, etc. Trashing or stealing every bit of data along the way? Freeze Microsofts assets you say? What if they could freeze or steal a great portion of the EUs assets?

Sure, the EU would get over it eventually, but it's an interesting thought experiment.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#116

Post by toyg »

marknutter wrote: post #112
toyg wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't understand the context. MS did indeed prevent OEMs from installing another browser; it's like they were forcing house builders (which have to use electricity) to connect only their own gas services to new houses. And for that sin, MS will keep paying for a long time; they're basically an ATM for the EU now. This is not great but hey, they do have a history; once a felon, forever a felon, so to speak.

But that doesn't fit with the analogy. Downloading and installing a third party browser is next to effortless. Who cares if the OEMs didn't install them? In my analogy the third party gas companies had to send out a technician to install their service, but could presumably do that free of charge to entice the customers to switch to their service.

It still prevented other companies to have similar, competing agreements with house builders, and inflicted extra costs on them. As such, it's clearly an abuse of a monopolistic position in one market to influence another.

In any case, this is not open to debate -- both the American and European justice systems found MS guilty, so that's how it is.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#117

Post by marknutter »

toyg wrote: post #116
marknutter wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that doesn't fit with the analogy. Downloading and installing a third party browser is next to effortless. Who cares if the OEMs didn't install them? In my analogy the third party gas companies had to send out a technician to install their service, but could presumably do that free of charge to entice the customers to switch to their service.

It still prevented other companies to have similar, competing agreements with house builders, and inflicted extra costs on them. As such, it's clearly an abuse of a monopolistic position in one market to influence another. In any case, this is not open to debate -- both the American and European justice systems found MS guilty, so that's how it is.

Right, because the American and European justice systems have never gotten it wrong, before.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#118

Post by Tichy »

slevin063 wrote: post #33
Tichy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you would send people to jail for not giving dumb users a browser choice that is only going to confuse them anyway?

that is upto the court to deicde, tomp got a point that since companies cannot be jailed, they should be fined a percentage of their revenue!

This case was a percentage of their revenue? But Tom called for 50% or 100% which seems excessive for such a nonsensical law.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#119

Post by glomph »

hodr wrote: post #115
vidarh wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an issue those people would need to take up with Microsoft if Microsoft decides to risk their business over this. If they don't pay, they will have assets frozen, just as any other company or individual that refuse to pay their fines. Simple as that.

I know they will back down, but it makes me wonder; what if they didn't? Could a business, a corporation, go to war against another entity. Countries go to war all the time and while it may be "illegal", it's only the loser that has to suffer the consequences. What if Microsoft just decided screw it, and flipped a magic switch somewhere and shut down the entire EU infrastructure. No OS, no web servers, no SQL, no sha…

I think it is funny that these types of comments always come up in threads about EU rulings but are never made when it is the US government.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#120

Post by tomp »

Tichy wrote: post #118
slevin063 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that is upto the court to deicde, tomp got a point that since companies cannot be jailed, they should be fined a percentage of their revenue!

This case was a percentage of their revenue? But Tom called for 50% or 100% which seems excessive for such a nonsensical law.

I was pointing out a general principle, not this specific case. What I had in mind is stricter punishment for more black-and-white crimes: not paying employee taxes/social contributions, not issuing receipts and thus avoiding sales tax, etc. I'm pretty sure that if fines were this high, compliance would become very high as well.
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