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Hackathons are bad for you

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Re: Hackathons are bad for you

#111

Post by nickmain »

michaelochurch wrote: post #74

The real crime is that programmers have so little time for the exploratory work that the career requires that they have to do all of that off-hours. Doctors can read medical journals and call it "working time". Most programmers have feces thrown at them if they're caught learning on the job. This is just something we have to suffer until we develop a stronger tribal identity and demand the conditions of a profession…

If the analogy is the medical profession then most software engineers are nurses or EMTs or ambulance drivers, not doctors.

Re: Hackathons are bad for you

#112

Post by YZF »

When I was much younger (high school) I used to stay up all night with friends, code, drink Coke, eat unhealthy foods - for fun. No exchange of currency involved. Then I would go and sleep until 2PM. Now I can't do that any more.

The other point is that even activity that is generally considered healthy, like sports, when forced upon you by various means, is going to be a negative. Forcing someone to run adds stress. Running because you enjoy it and want to run reduces stress.

Re: Hackathons are bad for you

#113

Post by ahoyhere »

michaelochurch wrote: post #74

The real crime is that programmers have so little time for the exploratory work that the career requires that they have to do all of that off-hours. Doctors can read medical journals and call it "working time". Most programmers have feces thrown at them if they're caught learning on the job. This is just something we have to suffer until we develop a stronger tribal identity and demand the conditions of a profession…

"The real crime is that programmers have so little time for the exploratory work that the career requires that they have to do all of that off-hours."

One should be wary of making generalizations like this. "Programmers have" or "Programmers don't have" groups an awful lot of extremely different people, and an extreme variation of experience, into one seemingly whole glossy industry.

When I programmed for hire, I never had any problem at all learning on the job. My jobs paid for books, training, and conferences. (Two of my jobs paid for conferences where I was accepted to speak -- that was part of my negotiation.) I also never had any issue charging for research & exploration time explicitly labeled as such in my freelance contracts.

Programmers have one of the world's most in-demand skills. If they have a sucky job that limits their growth, well, they should take those in-demand skills elsewhere. If they don't know how, or are afraid, they should suck it up and figure out how. Read a book on salary negotiation or how to attract better clients. Ask somebody. There's tons of info out there. There's no excuse. If they believe that they have nothing special to offer, so they are at a disadvantage in negotiations, then they have to figure out "Is that true?" and if yes "Then what can I do to gain leverage?"

Take control of your lives, folks.

Re: Hackathons are bad for you

#114

Post by ahoyhere »

michaelochurch wrote: post #81
crusso wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors can read medical journals and call it "working time" Where did you get that idea? I grew up in a family of doctors. If they aren't seeing patients, they aren't billing. They go to school an unthinkably long number of years and then they're put into a sleep depravation nightmare called "interning" for years before they get to have a career that normally includes "on call time" where they're woken up at all hou…

Perhaps I shouldn't have picked medicine as an example. The principle of professionalism is sound, but many of the traditional professions have departed from it. Law has outright imploded, while medicine has seen very long hours on account of the doctor shortage. If they aren't seeing patients, they aren't billing. Right, but 2000 hours per year wasn't traditionally the requirement. That may have changed. The profess…

"Perhaps I shouldn't have picked medicine as an example."

I don't think the mistake was in picking medicine, but rather declaring things without the benefit of facts.

Re: Hackathons are bad for you

#115

Post by mncolinlee »

I disagree with his insistence that one must lose sleep to win a hackathon.

Our >40k employee corporation had our first annual corporate hackathon in 2012. I led the team of six that beat forty-seven other teams to win the whole hackathon. No one on my team took any less than twelve hours off between day one and day two.

A hackathon is about developing an impressive minimum viable product and demo. It is not about building a finished product.

Re: Hackathons are bad for you

#116

Post by joshuacc »

michaelochurch wrote: post #74

The real crime is that programmers have so little time for the exploratory work that the career requires that they have to do all of that off-hours. Doctors can read medical journals and call it "working time". Most programmers have feces thrown at them if they're caught learning on the job. This is just something we have to suffer until we develop a stronger tribal identity and demand the conditions of a profession…

This depends very much on one's employer. For example, I have enough time to do a reasonable amount of technical research and personal development related to my job each week. And that's even in a "boring corporate" environment.

Re: Hackathons are bad for you

#118

Post by baby »

equalarrow wrote: post #89
wreckimnaked wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hackatons are fun. I don't get the point of saying that hanging out with people with similar, drinking beer and eating pizza is somehow bad for you. Maybe is about seeing it less as a competition and more like a regular social event.

I think the bigger issue here is not that they can't be fun, it's, basically, coding under duress and how society views programmers. Sure, if you're going to a hackathon to party and hang out, then it's not really a hackathon - it's a party. If you have to produce a usable result, then you will fail. The op is absolutely right - we are constrained by our physical bodies and they require the proper fuel and rest in or…

> if you're going to a hackathon to party and hang out, then it's not really a hackathon

so a hackathon is only coding without socializing to get victory? Accept that people don't generally see hackaton as a competition but as a place to have fun.

> we are constrained by our physical bodies and they require the proper fuel and rest in order to operate at peak efficiency

yes, and a hackaton can't ask people to gather somewhere they don't necessarily live for days, weeks, etc...

Re: Hackathons are bad for you

#120

Post by gamblor956 »

michaelochurch wrote: post #74

The real crime is that programmers have so little time for the exploratory work that the career requires that they have to do all of that off-hours. Doctors can read medical journals and call it "working time". Most programmers have feces thrown at them if they're caught learning on the job. This is just something we have to suffer until we develop a stronger tribal identity and demand the conditions of a profession…

The real crime is that programmers have so little time for the exploratory work that the career requires that they have to do all of that off-hours

All professionals do this: doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. This is why professionals get paid more than non-professionals; they are expected to learn on their own time rather than on the job. Even employers who provide continuing education at the workplace don't count that time as billable time. (Note that people who members of multiple professions must satisfy professional obligations for all of those professions, i.e., a lawyer-accountant must satisfy both CLE and CPE requirements.)

Welcome to the club.

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