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Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

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Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#111

Post by michaelt »

bunderbunder wrote: post #101
sc0rb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we go again, another Java hater for no reason. What should we replace it with? someCrap.js? someOtherCrap.py? You really have no idea what you're talking about. Killing Java would be a ridiculous thing to do. You live in such a bubble.

I'd vote for replacing it with Mono. Modern VM design, vastly superior flagship language, pretty solid on the side languages* too, better platform support (Thanks Xamarin!), and best yet it's Free. Like really Free, not Oracle-style "Here's the source code so you can maybe hack on our implementation a bit but if you try doing anything we don't like we'll sue your ass" 'free'. * Not really a great Lisp for the platfor…

I've heard good things about .net from Windows-only developers, but I haven't heard much from developers on other platforms. Seems to me developers who aren't on Windows end up as second class citizens.

Is there anyone here with experience developing for Mono on Linux and Mac? What's it like in reality?

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#112

Post by drzaiusapelord »

bunderbunder wrote: post #88
monochromatic wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ordinary people won't notice.

That's fine. Ordinary people never really realized how irritating Adobe was being about Flash, either, but that wasn't really a big deal because it was ultimately Flash's poor reputation among techies that brought it down. Similarly, I think Java's worst nightmare scenario wouldn't be end users deciding they don't like it. (Heck, like with Flash most of them don't even know when they're using it.) It would be some ma…

>it was ultimately Flash's poor reputation among techies that brought it down.

Sorry, but techie's opinions are overrated. iOS and mobile video brought Flash down a few notches, not us.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#113

Post by dasil003 »

sc0rb wrote: post #104
bunderbunder wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd vote for replacing it with Mono. Modern VM design, vastly superior flagship language, pretty solid on the side languages* too, better platform support (Thanks Xamarin!), and best yet it's Free. Like really Free, not Oracle-style "Here's the source code so you can maybe hack on our implementation a bit but if you try doing anything we don't like we'll sue your ass" 'free'. * Not really a great Lisp for the platfor…

Mono isn't proven anywhere near as much as the JVM. I don't know why this is being downvoted. It's true that the JVM is one of the things in the Java ecosystem that is looked upon as a massive success.

Probably because you decry someone for living in a bubble but then proceed to inflate your own. Yeah, the JVM is great, but not everything that fails to live up to its incredible success is "unproven".

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#114

Post by josephlord »

bunderbunder wrote: post #88
monochromatic wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ordinary people won't notice.

That's fine. Ordinary people never really realized how irritating Adobe was being about Flash, either, but that wasn't really a big deal because it was ultimately Flash's poor reputation among techies that brought it down. Similarly, I think Java's worst nightmare scenario wouldn't be end users deciding they don't like it. (Heck, like with Flash most of them don't even know when they're using it.) It would be some ma…

I'm not sure it was a general view amongst techies that did for Flash I think it was those in Apple (not necessarily techies) who made or influenced the decision not to support it in iOS that brought it down.

At the time that looked like a big gamble but with hindsight the gamble has paid off for everybody but Adobe and Flash developers.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#115

Post by pconf »

brudgers wrote: post #70
freehunter wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what do you propose Microsoft or Apple would do with the knowledge that I'm an alcoholic who is cheating on my wife? Why would they care? They're in business to make money, and there's not much money in extortion, not for long. If my phone called my wife automatically to tell her where I was and what I was doing, it wouldn't be long before no one bought that phone and Apple went out of business from the privacy l…

"Why do they spy? To sell us more stuff." They spy because they can. They spy because the companies involved believe that the data they collect has value. They spy because the companies involved believe that the data they collect might have even more value in the future. The companies involved aren't in the business of selling you stuff. They sell data about you to others. Sure that might be a retailer of Hello Kitty…

Not wrong at all, understated if anything. The Harvard Business Review highlighted Big Data a few issues ago, and public interest groups like EPIC and the EFF are on this full time. It doesn't take much reading from those sources or the many others to see how valuable big data i.e., spying, can be. Just follow the money.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#116

Post by kodablah »

sixbrx wrote: post #105
fierarul wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which other Java implementations? Apache's is abandoned. OpenJDK is basically still Oracle. What's left? IBM's JDK?

I'm really a bit surprised that there's not a prominent fork of OpenJDK by now, concentrating on the VM and not the Java compiler ("OpenJVM"). Tail calls, value types, easier direct calls to C to process large regions of data without copying (e.g. lapack): there are many things which could benefit non-Java languages on the JVM like Clojure and Scala that are taking too long with Oracle stewardship (as they did with S…

Probably because of the requirements Oracle would place on the fork to call it "Java" and give access to the TCK. They have said the only open source projects that would receive a TCK are forks of OpenJDK, but then you can't re-license it very friendly and who knows what other restrictions Oracle would put on you.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#117

Post by jff »

speeder wrote: post #22
josephagoss wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oracle don't care about happy people, and a lack of happy people dealing with Oracle has not stopped their massive profits so why would they start now? I think this is extra worse than normal bundling, because its a friggin platform! A basis for applications, it smells as bad as Microsoft asking to install a toolbar during the OS install.

I just remembered that Ubuntu ships with Amazon ads on their OS search bar... Seriously, how worse stuff can get? I imagine a future. A bright future. A future where everyone sees data, with Google Glasses like technology and beyond. And thus, where they have ads in front of them all the time, you arrive home, look at your daughter in the crib, and suddenly your entire vision is plastered with a semi-transparent ad f…

This stupid meme is getting really fucking old.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#118

Post by flomo »

eitland wrote: post #55
cmiles74 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the crapware bundling was started by Sun, it predates acquisition.

Most of the time Sun just used it to advertise OpenOffice which was their own product. Does anyone remember if Sun at any time bundled adware or other forms of crapware, esp. using deceptive tactics?

Sun Java included either the Google or Yahoo browser toolbar, and IIRC it prompted you about an antivirus program for a while.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#119

Post by pconf »

freehunter wrote: post #50
brudgers wrote: post #46

This petition is complaining about the neighbor on your left letting his dog crap in your yard, when the neighbor on the right is running a meth lab. We are carrying around phones filled with spyware to track what we listen to, watch and read an where we do it. How hard is it to discern even our sleep habits? We put them on the charger beside the bed at night and tune in to Pandora. If our phones can't tell if we're…

And what do you propose Microsoft or Apple would do with the knowledge that I'm an alcoholic who is cheating on my wife? Why would they care? They're in business to make money, and there's not much money in extortion, not for long. If my phone called my wife automatically to tell her where I was and what I was doing, it wouldn't be long before no one bought that phone and Apple went out of business from the privacy l…

"Why do they spy?"

One big reason they spy because there are a lot of webdevs who either have no idea or do not care about PII. Why would someone put a link on their website, to Facebook or Twitter for example, basically giving them all of their extremely valuable web logs for free? These companies make big bucks from those unnecessary "live links" and go to great lengths to avoid questions about why they "need" to be live (and they don't).

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#120

Post by bunderbunder »

michaelt wrote: post #111
bunderbunder wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd vote for replacing it with Mono. Modern VM design, vastly superior flagship language, pretty solid on the side languages* too, better platform support (Thanks Xamarin!), and best yet it's Free. Like really Free, not Oracle-style "Here's the source code so you can maybe hack on our implementation a bit but if you try doing anything we don't like we'll sue your ass" 'free'. * Not really a great Lisp for the platfor…

I've heard good things about .net from Windows-only developers, but I haven't heard much from developers on other platforms. Seems to me developers who aren't on Windows end up as second class citizens. Is there anyone here with experience developing for Mono on Linux and Mac? What's it like in reality?

It's not as good as it is on Windows, simply because of Visual Studio (let alone Visual Studio plus ReSharper). I must admit, it's enough of a productivity improver that even on my Mac I prefer to do most my hacking in VS running under VMWare. But that's not really anything against MonoDevelop, it's just that lately Visual Studio's gotten so good that it's really hard to resist using it if you already own a copy.

Compared to most other open source platforms, OTOH, I don't think it feels like one's been relegated to a language underclass at all. Of course you don't get the benefit of working in the operating system's official first-class language like you do on Windows, but in fairness that's a privilege that you never get to enjoy when working in most languages - including Java, Python, Ruby, and so forth.

As far as why it's less popular outside of Windows, I'm inclined to think that's mostly down to social effects. Java's got the Linux enterprise development space so wrapped up right now that I suspect trying to pivot to Mono would be a bit like trying to push a glacier. Businesses aren't in the habit of rewriting millions of lines of code on a whim.

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