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What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#111

Post by jiggy2011 »

pg wrote: post #16
SandB0x wrote: post #4

I think people will be wondering if this resembles the founders' ideas when they were funded by you, and if this represents the kind of company you wish to be funding. You may of course defend the product on technical grounds (accept buttons, EULAs, etc) but I find it hard to believe that you truly think it is anything but a nuisance to end-users.

They're working on something new, and all the office hours I had with them were about that. They're not even in our database of companies as InstallMonetizer but as the new thing. (I'm not sure if I can say the name because it may not be launched yet.) I knew they had some previous product that was called a Windows installer, but I don't think we ever talked about what it did. The whole world of Windows software seem…

I somewhat disagree that this is "no worse than all the upsells people have to click through to register domains on GoDaddy"

Although admittedly I have no idea what GoDaddy's checkout procedure is like since I have honestly never used it, maybe it is especially terrible in which case that is not a glowing reflection on this software..

However, thinking of less technical users here.

When you are in the mode to buy something , you are probably prepared for an upsell at some point and know what to look out for.

When installing something on your computer, a less savvy user is likely not knowledgeable enough to understand the implications of something extra being installed on their computer with often full administrative privileges.

They are also unlikely to understand the difference between an extra system component that must be installed for technical reasons (.Net, DirectX etc) and some third party software that is completely separate and not required.

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#112

Post by niggler »

notJim wrote: post #101
niggler wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The game is to get those people who aren't tech savvy, and PG knows and actively supports it. There literally is no way to do what IM is trying to do without somehow engaging in questionable behavior (reminiscent of Facebook in many ways)

> PG knows and actively supports it. I don't think this statement is really fair. If you read the previous post about this, he was clearly surprised and troubled, and he again seems troubled here. He also mentioned in a comment in this thread [1] that he didn't seem to know about InstallMonetizer, and that the team is working on a different product. [1]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5093047

Something seems off here, reminiscent of Rupert Murdoch's testimony regarding phone hacking. Being troubled is easy to say, but the fact that a company he has invested in is engaging in questionable activities doesn't really jive well with PGs claims regarding office hours. Not to say that he isn't genuinely troubled, but I would have hoped YC would inculcate his values (which, if they did act in accordance with PG's stated views, would have resulted in a far different product)

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#113

Post by [deleted] »

ericd wrote: post #61
niggler wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The game is to get those people who aren't tech savvy, and PG knows and actively supports it. There literally is no way to do what IM is trying to do without somehow engaging in questionable behavior (reminiscent of Facebook in many ways)

Don't make libelous public accusations of PG if you don't know anything about the situation.

[deleted]

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#114

Post by photon137 »

powrtoch wrote: post #88

I don't understand all the moralizing going on in this thread. VC is about funding the companies that could make a lot of money. When did we start expecting them to be the morality police? Sure, if YC wants to build up a reputation for funding "honorable" startups, then they can choose to do so (and will choose to do so to the extent that they think it makes business sense). The comments here that say "This might be…

It's not an issue of installer checkboxes - it's an issue of abuse of trust. Would you feel the same way about the no-doc home-loans that were handed out just so that some brokers could make some money? They were simply some checkboxes too that nobody cared to read through - and look where it led us.

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#115

Post by SCdF »

powrtoch wrote: post #88

I don't understand all the moralizing going on in this thread. VC is about funding the companies that could make a lot of money. When did we start expecting them to be the morality police? Sure, if YC wants to build up a reputation for funding "honorable" startups, then they can choose to do so (and will choose to do so to the extent that they think it makes business sense). The comments here that say "This might be…

I've never understood this line of reasoning.

It is entirely within YC's right to fund businesses that a portion of the Internet find scummy.

Shockingly, it's entirely within the rights of that portion of the Internet community to then whinge about them funding said scummy businesses.

And it's YCs right to care, or not, about that opinion.

Someone once wrote a blog post that had a paragraph on cheating (on your spouse etc) and what constitutes cheating. He said that it doesn't matter whether you think what you did was cheating, only whether your spouse thought you were cheating. Your worthiness is entirely in the eyes of the other person, not yours. The other person is who you're 'selling' yourself to.

And so it is with companies. If McDonald's customers suddenly care about healthy food, McDonald's has to too.

The question is, is the portion of the Internet community that thinks these people are scummy YC's spouse? Should YC bend to their version of reality?

That's for YC to decide.

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#116

Post by ricw »

seanlinehan wrote: post #108
ricw wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If IM would be solving a problem, I would agree. Unfortunately it is crapware. Crap. Ware. It is not solving a problem. It is making the world a worse place. Maybe they should start Investing into viruses?! where does this end? It's something I wouldn't expect of pg and yc. It's simply immoral and shit behaviour. Divest or be disgraced!

Classic straw man argument. Viruses are illegal in almost every case and thus clearly they should not, and will not, invest in viruses. Not that I support IM, but they are solving a clear and distinct problem: software is hard to monetize.

The virus statement was a rethorical question.. Unfortunately it is not a real problem that users face. It's a problem that a very small minority has and that inconveniences the majority. If that's what you set out to do in life..

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#117

Post by niggler »

karamazov wrote: post #96
niggler wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The game is to get those people who aren't tech savvy, and PG knows and actively supports it. There literally is no way to do what IM is trying to do without somehow engaging in questionable behavior (reminiscent of Facebook in many ways)

"literally no way" is a very strong statement - do you have any proof?

Any software that is desirable on its own will be sought out on its own. Plain and simple. There is no need to piggyback adobe PDF reader in any software that doesn't use PDFs because people who need a PDF reader will seek one out.

Any sort of parasitism is trying to circumvent this process by convincing others that they need software that isn't directly needed for the problem at hand or otherwise forcing people to install software. And that's the type of behavior styled as "questionable" in this discussion. Tactics like omitting a "no thanks", while perfectly legal, seem as questionable in many other contexts.

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#118

Post by jiggy2011 »

jessedhillon wrote: post #83
pg wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're working on something new, and all the office hours I had with them were about that. They're not even in our database of companies as InstallMonetizer but as the new thing. (I'm not sure if I can say the name because it may not be launched yet.) I knew they had some previous product that was called a Windows installer, but I don't think we ever talked about what it did. The whole world of Windows software seem…

You're a much more patient and understanding person than I am, pg. My initial reaction to pretty much every comment here is "Peanut gallery -- start your own incubator, or just accomplish one noteworthy thing in your life." As a non-pg entity, I feel vicarious indignation. Who are these random nobodies who think they're entitled to question how/where you spend your time and effort? And the people who get up on their…

I never really like these type of arguments. For example if I believe a doctor is acting unethically is it wrong for me to call him out because I don't have a medical license?

Sure, there may be factors here we don't understand here but I think now would be an excellent time to unveil whatever grand plan they have to head off the PR shitstorm this is in the process of creating.

As I have mentioned elsewhere YC have gained significant nerd-cred which has no doubt been beneficial to them. This seems to be largely because they appear as a company that has strong driving principles about the sort of changes they want to see in the world.

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#119

Post by anatoly »

jessedhillon wrote: post #83
pg wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're working on something new, and all the office hours I had with them were about that. They're not even in our database of companies as InstallMonetizer but as the new thing. (I'm not sure if I can say the name because it may not be launched yet.) I knew they had some previous product that was called a Windows installer, but I don't think we ever talked about what it did. The whole world of Windows software seem…

You're a much more patient and understanding person than I am, pg. My initial reaction to pretty much every comment here is "Peanut gallery -- start your own incubator, or just accomplish one noteworthy thing in your life." As a non-pg entity, I feel vicarious indignation. Who are these random nobodies who think they're entitled to question how/where you spend your time and effort? And the people who get up on their…

You're more obnoxious than all the critics in this thread put together. Get off your high horse.

The reason all the "random nobodies" are questioning IM's business model is that they have deep-seated feelings about the scammy business and the evilness of Windows installers. They spent hours cleaning up mountains of crap from their relatives' and friends' computers. They understand how non-tech users feel helpless in the face of sneaky bullshit artists piling that crap onto their hard drives, and they feel enraged when they think about it, and for a good reason too.

So in fact, nobody who's in business of building installers that distribute crap toolbars deserves humility and circumspection. They might possibly be that rare exception, a flower blooming on a dunghill, but asking sharp questions to establish that is neither impolite nor inappropriate. It comes with the territory they've chosen to grow on.

Your moral indignation is as laughable as it is corrupt. Just as much of it would be appropriate defending an actual spammer - I can see you directing people to get off their soapboxes and telling them they don't get to judge the spammer's business until they earned $1 from a customer. A "completely different universe" indeed. Get a clue.

Re: What we discovered about InstallMonetizer

#120

Post by yuhong »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #58
dsl wrote: post #13

These guys have gotten a lot of flack they don't deserve. A friend of mine builds and distributes what most people would consider "crapware" (toolbars, adware, etc.) and was flat out denied by IM when he tried to use them for distribution. Sure a bad apple or two might slip through, but according to my friend its rare to ever be denied by a distributor unless you're not willing to pay going rates. It seems like they…

The best way to "clean up" a dirty industry that adds no value is to starve it until it dies.

Why do you think it is impossible for it to add any value?
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