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How An AI math breakthrough ignited a controversy

science.org

111–120 of 243 posts

Re: How An AI math breakthrough ignited a controversy

#111

> “I certainly don't expect the industry to continue to spend millions of dollars to solve problems in mathematics, because there is no profit in it,” Columbia University mathematician Michael Harris wrote in an email to Science. But he worries the highly publicized achievement will be “extremely damaging to mathematics; it convinces decision makers that human mathematicians are obsolete, and it convinces young peopl…

> it convinces decision makers that human mathematicians are obsolete, and it convinces young people that their passion for mathematics has no future

Maybe those things are true, so maybe they should be convinced?

Re: How An AI math breakthrough ignited a controversy

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The site should have a disclaimer at the bottom: "A Sam Altman Production."

99% of the world (maybe more) have 0 idea of who Sam Altman is. Add "We might take credit for things you figure out, if we can infer it from your prompts" and it might actually affect people's usage of these tools.

Don't say that - he'll start making sure everyone knows who he is

Re: How An AI math breakthrough ignited a controversy

#113
post #3

> Navier-Stokes is one of six “Millennium Problems” on a list compiled by the Clay Mathematics Institute in 2000. Seven, not six. One is solved already, but is still a millennium problem.

Yes, that's a strange mistake to make.

Not really. There's a non-pedantic, charitable interpretation widely available. It's below for reference.

> Navier-Stokes is one of six [open] “Millennium Problems” on a list compiled by the Clay Mathematics Institute in 2000.

Re: How An AI math breakthrough ignited a controversy

#114
post #18

Regardless of what you think of the priority dispute issue discussed on sibling threads, I’m highly skeptical of the closing quote that this Navier Stokes result means that the same approach of casually spending a few million on agentic computation is going to solve end to end materials design or drug development. Those problems can’t be formally verified with an automated theorem prover. We have a lot of physics bas…

For any practical application, numerical solvers for Navier-Stokes already exist and do a good job. This proof is just checking the boxes for mathematicians.

you're as sure of what you say as wrong about it.

Re: How An AI math breakthrough ignited a controversy

#115

Does it matter who gets the credit at this point? Both used AI to do 99%+ of the work. So... do machines have ego?

If you take OpenAI at face value, they claim they threw a relatively simple prompt at the problem on a whim and boom presto, a swarm of "agents", 15 million dollars and 90 hours later they disproved the hypothesis. Wow, look at how powerful our AI is, you don't even need to be a world-class mathematician, you just tell it to solve a problem and it does! By contrast, what the world-class 2 mathematicians did was sat d…

>what the world-class 2 mathematicians did was sat down and started working on their proof for over a year

If they were not related to anthropic I'd probably agree with you. OpenAI is much more for science than they are imo. Anthropic culture is all about "machine go brrrr" more than all of the other labs. If they had access to better models they'd probably would've one-shotted the solution. When the creator of bun was just "vibe-sciencing" it was ok. There is little to no evidence that they've been working using AI in this problem for over a year. Maybe they've been working on the problem for decades. So many other scientist have. Are they better because they threw a prompt and let it go brr??

When we put this in the perspective of how agents are changing the landscape of math/science, true it is shitty and weird. When folks are saying these scientists by anthropic that vibe-science'd the solution are victims, just because they did it with a smaller model, it is not defensible imo. And credit loses meaning here. The credit is shared with all the scientists that contributed somehow with the data in the AI pre-pos/training and not the prompter.

Re: How An AI math breakthrough ignited a controversy

#116

Moving forward, I can't imagine other mathematicians wanting to have this kind of experience. So there has to be a shift away from these services.

A better alternative is just to make all your work open and public, then everyone can see what you should get credit for.

Re: How An AI math breakthrough ignited a controversy

#117
post #18

Regardless of what you think of the priority dispute issue discussed on sibling threads, I’m highly skeptical of the closing quote that this Navier Stokes result means that the same approach of casually spending a few million on agentic computation is going to solve end to end materials design or drug development. Those problems can’t be formally verified with an automated theorem prover. We have a lot of physics bas…

I’m pretty sure that OpenAI has some of the best mathematicians prompting the models and analysing the results. While they are marketing as if the model solves problems themselves.

Prompting them yes, suggesting potentially fruitful research directions and so on, but the actual research was conducted by hundreds of agents swapping millions of messages and using billions of output tokens over 88 hours. The result being a huge Lean proof: https://github.com/openai/NavierStokesAndEuler. It's not just possible for humans to manually guide such a process in a meaningful way. They can set the direction and attempt to understand the result, but they solution itself must emerge (or not) from the agent swarm.

So yes, the models do seem to be "solving" the problems themselves, but not necessarily in the way we think of mathematical discoveries happening. Academic mathematics has historically been resource constrained: There are a limited number of top-level mathematicians, and they only have so much time and brain power to spend. So when approaching a problem, they are essentially forced to be as efficient as possible, not just searching for a solution, but for one that can be achieved within their cognitive budget. This induces them to develop novel techniques and abstractions, and it is actually those techniques and abstractions that tend to be the valuable part for further research, not the proof itself.

An agentic swarm is like getting a single skilled mathematician, cloning them a hundred times, then locking them in a room with the single objective of solving a problem. No longer constrained by time or brain power, they can approach it differently, using pre-existing techniques to gradually build their way to a solution. This process might not require a single intuitive leap or new discovery, and the solution will not be simple or elegant, but they will probably get there. It is more like a process of intelligently guided search than invention.

Re: How An AI math breakthrough ignited a controversy

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He may be hinting that solving these complex mathematical problems will boost OpenAI clients' confidence and encourage them to spend millions of dollars on solving other complex problems.

I would think it would have the exact opposite effect. Why would anyone use OpenAI models for anything commercially valuable, or where secrecy is important, when it appears that if OpenAI "becomes aware" that you are doing so they may try to compete with you? Not only did OpenAI, by their own admission, rush to re-solve Navier-Stokes once they heard the rumor that it has been solved (the rumor being that it was Anthr…

Because AI supposedly provides a significant advantage over not using AI and those who would trust OpenAI might get a significant edge.

Re: How An AI math breakthrough ignited a controversy

#119
post #18

Regardless of what you think of the priority dispute issue discussed on sibling threads, I’m highly skeptical of the closing quote that this Navier Stokes result means that the same approach of casually spending a few million on agentic computation is going to solve end to end materials design or drug development. Those problems can’t be formally verified with an automated theorem prover. We have a lot of physics bas…

Yeah, I think you can't just throw money randomly at problems and expect results unless you know a line of attack that can get you all the way. OpenAI chose the line of attack only after it became known to them via rumors. They "front-ran" the researchers.

Worth noting they claim they did not choose the line of attack. Of course we don’t know whether that is true.

Re: How An AI math breakthrough ignited a controversy

#120
post #18

Regardless of what you think of the priority dispute issue discussed on sibling threads, I’m highly skeptical of the closing quote that this Navier Stokes result means that the same approach of casually spending a few million on agentic computation is going to solve end to end materials design or drug development. Those problems can’t be formally verified with an automated theorem prover. We have a lot of physics bas…

For any practical application, numerical solvers for Navier-Stokes already exist and do a good job. This proof is just checking the boxes for mathematicians.

Agreed, but i think this underscores my point. We have numerical simulations in materials science too, but that doesn’t mean formally verified theorems about the underlying equations automatically translate to formal (or even informal) verification of simulation results. That’s not to say you can’t make progress with agents, but I think it’s less well defined how you write the goal and progress assessment for an agent
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