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Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

diegobasch.com

111–120 of 164 posts

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#111
post #44

Not once does the author dare to compare homicide rates to other developed countries. You're almost twice as likely to be killed by a gun because you live in the United States vs. the next developed country (Finland). You're 2.6 times as likely to be killed than the next country, Canada. Something is very wrong here. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

I think you missed the point. Gun control might be a good idea, but not because it will reduce the likelihood of psychopathic spree killings.

Psychopathic spree killings are such a low-probability, extreme event that there's almost nothing you can do, at a public policy level, to influence them. Your monkey brain may protest that this simply cannot be (as mine does), but our monkey brains are wrong.

Instead we need to look for significant trends. Or consider that our actions might cause other harms more often, which is especially likely when our actions are driven by low-probability events. Basing public policy on such extreme events is not just stupid, it's immoral.

And yet, that's exactly the job of the media. The media works, by and large, by telling individual stories to provoke general sympathy or outrage. This is a good thing when that story is representative of a larger problem. What we have now is random phenomena driving larger political discussions.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#112
Mass shootings are a strawman which allows convenient comparison to lightning strikes.

The correct meaningful numbers in establishing public policy regarding firearms are approximately 19,000 suicides by fire arm per year, and 11,000 homicides by firearm per year.

If we look at those numbers, the deaths in the recent school shooting are quite ordinary. The homicides are equivalent to the extra day in a leap year, and the suicide of the gunman was statistically background noise.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#113
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Errr, you're ignoring the highest casualty mass murders, at least in the US, which were done by arson. Maybe not "fastest", but otherwise very "competitive" with firearms. I can't track a list down, but in a recent discussion someone mentioned counting something like 19 out of the top 20 mass murders in the US.

But arson has been largely addressed in western countries by legislation. Building and fire codes are strong, positive examples that federal and/or state legislation saves lives (as I'm not a US citizen, I'm not sure where juridiction lies).

It's state and local. But I think you underestimate the distinction between a normal fire and one set to deliberately murder. To get back to the current topic, one reason the death toll at Virginia Tech was so high was the shooter chained shut from the inside all three exits of the building. No one could escape and that gave the shooter an extra 5 minutes before the police could breach a door.

Then there are the cases where the building codes are not observed; Wikipedia even has a category "Fire disasters involving barricaded escape routes" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fire_disasters_involvi...). Only one of these is listed as an arson attack, I know of one other (Happy Land), although both of these were code type problems. Hmmm, and according to Wikipedia, the Dupont Plaza Hotel arson, 2nd worst in US history at a minimum of 97 killed, locked emergency exits on a casino floor were a factor (wow, I'm impressed Wikipedia's article does not use the word union once...).

Still can't find a list of arson fires, so further analysis by me will have to wait, but I know plenty of smaller scale ones I've read about have involved the arsonists blocking the entrances, often by setting more than one fire.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#114
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely the scale of a single active shooter matches something like using a fire extinguisher vs. "fighting a fire". As for "effective and safe", so you'd think, and so did I (who started shooting in 1st grade in 1967 (sic)), but civilians with little or no training have demonstrated an amazing ability to responsibly use firearms in self-defense. Police in general are not useful comparisons. They're required by their…

If the NYPD can't get it right, what's the chances of the Oswego IL school district getting it right? And each of the other ~100K public schools in the US?

Much, much better. New York City is totally politicized, else they wouldn't have done something as insane as using FMJ ammo until too many innocent bystanders were hurt through over-penetration and ricochets. Places where this is too politicized won't even do this, otherwise there's a good chance that people with a clue will be involved. We do know how to do this correctly, and note again, the NYPD situation is with handguns, it doesn't apply to the M4s in a safe concept.

You know, people normally hold out New York City as an object lesson in how not to run one, I'm amazed by anyone who thinks otherwise.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#115
post #47

"I would start by measuring the magnitude of mass shootings as a problem... That’s an average of 18 deaths per year. For comparison, three times as many die from lightning strikes." This is a bullshit red herring designed to ignore 99.8% of the gun homicides that take place each year in the US [1]. Gun control works to control much more than just mass shootings. [1] Using 8K as a rough estimate for annual gun deaths…

Perhaps you should read the rest of the article in which the author examines the non-mass-shooting gun related homicides. The reddit attention span appears to be alive and well at HN.

Ignoring 99.8% of gun deaths until paragraph 12 is pretty much the most ridiculous form of burying the lede I've ever seen.

Yes he eventually talks about all these gun deaths and then he hand waves it all away, too much thinking:

"I’m not even going to try to answer those questions, because they are extremely complex."

Too much work, forget it. Man, if only scores of other countries had gone through something similar and we could draw on those experiences but ... thinking is HARD!

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#116
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did the author conclude there was no need to fix the current problem? My understanding of the article is that there is no clear answer to the problem, given that every potential solution has loads of potential side effects, some of them with the potential to outweigh the positives of the original solution. That doesn't mean it doesn't need to be fixed; just that the fix should be driven by rational thought and…

Exactly. All I said is that I don't know if there are any fixes to the problem that wouldn't cause potentially worse problems. That's why I mention iatrogenics: unintended side effects of a cure that are more damaging than leaving a disease alone.

> I don't know if there are any fixes to the problem that wouldn't cause potentially worse problems

Again, comparison to other developed countries proves there are.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#117
post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

America has got to be the only country in the industrialized world where it seems reasonable to respond to mass shootings (and shootings in general) by suggesting that more people should have guns. Here's a scatter plot of firearms per 100,000 and gun homocides per 100 for OECD countries: http://i.imgur.com/ZAI3T.png Needless to say, the dot in the top right corner is the USA> Data is from here: http://www.guardian.c…

The scale on that graphic is a little misleading. The spacing on the "gun homicides per 100K citizens" compared to the "firearms per 100 citizens" makes it look like the US has twice an many deaths as the next lowest just like they have twice as many guns. I don't know who is represented by the dot at 2.25 "gun homicides per 100K citizens" but the statistical difference between 2.25 and 3 when compared to 100K is not much. While that same dot represents 10 "firearms per 100 citizens". THAT dot seems to have a horrific kill rate. The US has 9 times more "firearms per 100 citizens" yet less than 1 additional "gun homicides per 100K citizens". Who is that dot?

Edit: Not saying the scale is misleading on purpose... just that it is misleading.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#118
We frequently see statistics quoted saying that the number of firearm homicides in the US is higher than that of other developed countries.

We also see statistics quoted saying that the number of firearms is higher than that of other developed countries.

I'd like to see statistics comparing the number of murders with other weapons. It is perfectly plausible that we have an elevated rate of gun ownership for historical or cultural reasons, and (since they are such highly engineered weapons) we tend to use guns to murder people, rather than other weapons.

If number of murders perpetrated with other weapons is lower than in other countries, its entirely possible that enforcing stricter gun control would not have a significant effect on the total number of murders.

Factors that might go against this hypothesis are the fact that gun availability might encourage people to kill more readily, gun availability makes a successful murder easier, etc... There are a host of other confounding factors, as well.

I don't really have strong a priori beliefs about these questions, but I'd like to see some more statistics. Another interesting statistic would be to see a time-series comparison of overall homicides, gun homicides and gun ownership in America over time.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#119
We frequently see statistics quoted saying that the number of firearm homicides in the US is higher than that of other developed countries.

We also see statistics quoted saying that the number of firearms is higher than that of other developed countries.

I'd like to see statistics comparing the number of murders with other weapons. It is perfectly plausible that we have an elevated rate of gun ownership for historical or cultural reasons, and (since they are such highly engineered weapons) we tend to use guns to murder people, rather than other weapons.

If number of murders perpetrated with other weapons is lower than in other countries, its entirely possible that enforcing stricter gun control would not have a significant effect on the total number of murders.

Factors that might go against this hypothesis are the fact that gun availability might encourage people to kill more readily, gun availability makes a successful murder easier, etc... There are a host of other confounding factors, as well.

I don't really have strong a priori beliefs about these questions, but I'd like to see some more statistics. Another interesting statistic would be to see a time-series comparison of overall homicides, gun homicides and gun ownership in America over time.

edit As an afterthought, burgeoning fabrication methods (i.e. 3-D printing) will radically change arguments about gun control. Bullets will be an easier choke-point for regulation.

Also, people need to take very seriously the author's observation that the relative infrequency of these events will make prevention efforts extremely difficult to evaluate. New policies will likely have a time-lag, but even if we wait patiently to evaluate them (which seems unlikely in this political climate), mass murders on the rate at which we see them in Europe could easily 'blow the curve.'

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#120
post #116
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. All I said is that I don't know if there are any fixes to the problem that wouldn't cause potentially worse problems. That's why I mention iatrogenics: unintended side effects of a cure that are more damaging than leaving a disease alone.

> I don't know if there are any fixes to the problem that wouldn't cause potentially worse problems Again, comparison to other developed countries proves there are.

Why? What country is close enough to the US in size, heterogeneity and number of guns so that you can make a fair comparison?

Edit to answer to the comment below: think what you want. Don't try to convince me. I'm skeptical, you're not. Write to your legislators instead of here. Write your own blog posts.

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