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Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

arstechnica.com

111–120 of 156 posts

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#111

This is so unacceptable. Build as many data centers as you want, but fossil fuels NEED to stop yesterday.

I remember a couple of years ago Amazon added a new leadership principle:

Success and Scale Bring Broad Responsibility

We started in a garage, but we’re not there anymore. We are big, we impact the world, and we are far from perfect. We must be humble and thoughtful about even the secondary effects of our actions. Our local communities, planet, and future generations need us to be better every day. We must begin each day with a determination to make better, do better, and be better for our customers, our employees, our partners, and the world at large. And we must end every day knowing we can do even more tomorrow. Leaders create more than they consume and always leave things better than how they found them.

these actions are exactly the opposite of what they claim to try to strive towards.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Because you said so? So China and India can use all the fossil fuels they want, and other counties too not just them. But the West has to kowtow to Net Zero / ”Renewables” nonsense? We’re not buying it anymore. Everything has tradeoffs. Destroying the economy and letting low income and poor people freeze in the dark or melt in the sun is passé .

But doesn’t China have the largest rollout of solar in the world?

Maybe we should be looking inward as to why solar isn't more easily deployable in the US. Local zoning, permitting, and community opposition are some of the top road blocks there...

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#113

If only we had the technology and ability to produce enormous quantities of energy non-stop 24/7 365, no matter day or night wind or no wind.

The problem is that the people who want to build nuclear plants are precisely the people I don't trust to build nuclear plants.

Personally, I think we should look at a structure similar to the military for running the plants. No profit motive, enlistment terms, court martial, stigma associated with dishonourable discharge, veterans benefits, etc. The military is the only one I know of with a track record in nuclear energy that I would trust.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#114
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BUT NUKES! All jokes aside, yes, we should invest massively in nuclear.

No we shouldn't. Nuclear waste is not and will never be solved. Nuclear meltdowns are real. Also, nuclear is more expensive than wind and solar.

We also haven't solve carbon waste, and carbon waste seems like a dramatically larger problem than nuclear waste.

Not considering this tradeoff has led to much carbon waste.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#115
post #95
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What polls are you seeing where public opposition is starting to break? All the polling seems to be heading strongly in a negative direction. The Texas governor even had to accept political reality and seem like he was recognizing public anger. At a protest in Salem OR a guy just the other day showed up with a literal guillotine and the CEO had to leave the meeting. People making rational arguments don’t recognize th…

I'm not seeing polling break, just opinion writing. You're kind of making my case for me when you talk about people showing up to protests with guillotines.

I don’t know if I would trust opinion writing to be predictive of a growing reactive populist movement. I would caution people being dismissive of how angry people are, data centers are just a political focusing mechanism. It will get worse of course if all of this ends with an economic shock.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#116
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No we shouldn't. Nuclear waste is not and will never be solved. Nuclear meltdowns are real. Also, nuclear is more expensive than wind and solar.

Nuclear material literally came out of the ground...m you can put it back..we have literally infinite amount of rock under us

The problem is keeping it out of the water table.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#117
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not seeing polling break, just opinion writing. You're kind of making my case for me when you talk about people showing up to protests with guillotines.

I don’t know if I would trust opinion writing to be predictive of a growing reactive populist movement. I would caution people being dismissive of how angry people are, data centers are just a political focusing mechanism. It will get worse of course if all of this ends with an economic shock.

I agree that a lot of data center advocacy is just incoherent polarization and populism, as evidenced by the guillotines.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, best I can do are a bunch of activist hippies.

Don't worry, the solar dude is about enter the chat.

Hang tight because after them, the guys that paid top dollar for their EVs and need to tell you how not it’s not anxiety; but that they really enjoy watching and mentally considering the charge and rate of depletion everywhere they go all the time.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#120
post #48
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not majority opinion to be against data centers? One of the largest bipartisan issues of our time, something like 70% of the US population being against it in some capacity (likely even higher)? https://news.gallup.com/poll/709772/americans-oppose-data-ce...

That poll says Americans broadly oppose data centers in their local area . A poll of all Americans would likely find broad majority support for the construction of data centers in Texas; a poll isomorphic to this one would also find similarly broad opposition to the construction of apartment buildings in their local area.

It is kind of bonkers if you consider that all of us already had "data centers" in our backyards already.

Every corporation and even most small businesses have had a machine room, wiring closet, or some kind of server shoved into a room, since 30 years ago now. They all had them in every office building you ever drove by, or lived next to, or shopped near. It's simply that people didn't even register them, because none of the general public really sees or knows what goes on in office parks, and behind the tinted corporate windows. It could be as benign as a toy distributor or as wicked as a defense contractor, and from the outside, they look alike.

But they've all had computers, and networks, for decades. And what we are seeing now is consolidation and concentration. The offices and parks and buildings are hollowed out -- they've laid off workers, they've gone WFH, and most importantly, they've gutted their machine rooms and removed on-prem equipment in migration to the cloud. So each and every company that migrated to the cloud has shrunk their own machine room's footprint by X amount that is reflected in data-center capacity by an identical (or perhaps larger) X. And that, of course, means that power, cooling, and resource consumption is not necessarily enlarged, but merely transferred and concentrated into DCs rather than power-hungry machine rooms, humming secretly inside every office building.

I look back to my first job--I worked at an ISP, and we colocated with the San Diego Supercomputer Center. The SDSC was a data center par excellence with the finest machines that ever existed on the floor. And I was still a kid when I'd be admitted to the main floor, I'd walk past a Y-MP, a Thinking Machine, an Intel Paragon, a Nearline Tape Robot, and there were our humble little pizza-boxes, sitting on a table trying to keep up with Usenet. Our own ISP offices didn't even have a machine room of our own, just a rack with a hub--yeah a hub--and a Sparc 2 pizza box to serve the office. We were already "in the cloud", as it were. More or less literally--SDSC was where they tested nuclear weapons, predicted the weather, and explored outer space, through the magic of FORTRAN...

So what people are complaining about is something they can see. If you're dying of cancer for 20 years but you never go to a doctor, you won't feel it. Once you see the doctor, the chemotherapy starts, and then you croak from the chemo. So this building of datacenters is simply bringing this into the open, and into the light. And people are angrily reactive at social media, and techbros, and surveillance capitalism, and AI-job-losses, and corporate hijinks in general, so data centers do give a focus to that futile rage.

But it's futile, and we all depend on data centers already, even before they are built, and we need DCs now to sustain our economy and our civilization as it already is. It's futile to resist and if you want to come in with a tractor to demolish them, you'll be arrested, and the Flock camera attackers will be hauled into prison too, and technology will just impassively march along as a juggernaut with no feelings, no remorse, and no mercy.

It's a pity; we were really nice folks for a few hundred years.

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