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Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

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Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#111

Post by dwd »

slwvx wrote: post #27
Havoc wrote: post #20

I don't think the out loud or someone listening / reacting matters at all here. Suspect it's entirely this: >The thought that was comfortable as a vague impression has to become a sentence, and sentences have structure. It's not unlike what people like PG say about writing improving thinking...it's the being forced to go from fuzzy directional notions to something you can put on paper in that will stand up to critiqu…

I don't think the out loud or someone listening / reacting matters at all here. Suspect it's entirely this: >The thought that was comfortable as a vague impression has to become a sentence, and sentences have structure. I often construct full sentences in my head. And have conversations with my mental model of some other person. In full sentences

There has been many a time where the process of thinking through in my head how I was going to describe the problem to someone else on the way over to them, that a testable idea pops up.

Could probably have gone for a walk around the block instead, but the formulation of the problem to be able to explain it to someone else seems to be key.

Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#113

Post by [deleted] »

Havoc wrote: post #20

I don't think the out loud or someone listening / reacting matters at all here. Suspect it's entirely this: >The thought that was comfortable as a vague impression has to become a sentence, and sentences have structure. It's not unlike what people like PG say about writing improving thinking...it's the being forced to go from fuzzy directional notions to something you can put on paper in that will stand up to critiqu…

[deleted]

Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#115

Post by utopiah »

Havoc wrote: post #20

I don't think the out loud or someone listening / reacting matters at all here. Suspect it's entirely this: >The thought that was comfortable as a vague impression has to become a sentence, and sentences have structure. It's not unlike what people like PG say about writing improving thinking...it's the being forced to go from fuzzy directional notions to something you can put on paper in that will stand up to critiqu…

My own efficiency ranking :

- genuine dialog between 2 peers with overlapping knowledge on the topic, both being kind, patient, open-minded yet critical, able to point flaws in reasoning or provenance without being hurtful

- genuine dialog between 2 peers with overlapping knowledge on the topic

- genuine dialog between 2 peers

- genuine dialog between 2 persons

- thinking out loud in front of someone listening

- thinking out loud alone thinking of someone listening

- thinking out loud alone

The "trick" here, and that's why I wanted to write it down, is that having an actual person, real or imaginary, does force one to actually explain. A typical fallacy is the "proof left out to the student" which actually happens to be terribly complex or even infeasible.

I believe trying to explain to someone forces you to identify the gap into their knowledge and your point. It's precisely mapping where knowledge does NOT overlap. So instead of making a lot of assumptions they have to be laid out, at the very least made in part explicit. Doing so forces you to stop skimming parts that are challenging for you. The part that you might not feel so sure.

Obviously the whole problem is that this peer, who is both knowledgeable and kind is good in their field and popular, thus busy. Consequently their time is very VERY precious. Hopefully you yourself are that peer. That means that often we have to go down the list and find the next best person.

So... I do think duck debugging is better if you genuinely trust in the kindness of the duck, not see it as a piece of plastic ;)

Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#118

Post by whateverboat »

kimi wrote: post #117

I find it very useful to talk to my dog. When I have a problem I'm banging my head against, just explaining it to him from first principles makes my head "click". When that works, his dog treats are billed as "consulting".

What field is he a dogtor in?

Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#119

Post by tgrowazay »

whateverboat wrote: post #118
kimi wrote: post #117

I find it very useful to talk to my dog. When I have a problem I'm banging my head against, just explaining it to him from first principles makes my head "click". When that works, his dog treats are billed as "consulting".

What field is he a dogtor in?

Greenfield projects

Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#120

Post by japanuspus »

dwd wrote: post #111
slwvx wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the out loud or someone listening / reacting matters at all here. Suspect it's entirely this: >The thought that was comfortable as a vague impression has to become a sentence, and sentences have structure. I often construct full sentences in my head. And have conversations with my mental model of some other person. In full sentences

There has been many a time where the process of thinking through in my head how I was going to describe the problem to someone else on the way over to them, that a testable idea pops up. Could probably have gone for a walk around the block instead, but the formulation of the problem to be able to explain it to someone else seems to be key.

This is what I miss from (the early) Stack Overflow: often the process of writing up a well-framed question ended up solving the problem.

I sometimes put out the question anyway and added an answer. Never quite figured out if this was considered bad style.

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