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A Post-Quantum Future for Let's Encrypt

letsencrypt.org

111–120 of 175 posts

Re: A Post-Quantum Future for Let's Encrypt

#111

We are truly living in a science fiction future where quantum code cracking is not a remote possibility but a near term risk we are planning for. In Vernor Vinge's novel "A Fire Upon the Deep" one of the most valuable commodities were one time pads that are physically transported to communication nodes to enable unbreakable communication. The pads are split into three pieces that are XORed to create the actual pad to…

> a near term risk we are planning for

I'd argue it's closer to a cheap insurance, just in case.

Take the encryption of a TLS connection itself, for example: you want to protect against a possible "store now, decrypt later" attack on your connection, 60 years from now, by an attacker with an NSA-level budget. Even if you judge the probability of it happening as "exceedingly unlikely", migrating to a hybrid scheme is a no-loss scenario, so it would be silly not to. In a way it's almost a Pascal's Wager.

And then there's of course the NSA itself, who are heavily pushing for post-quantum-only schemes and trying to suppress the hybrid schemes as they almost certainly have weaknesses for some of those new PQ schemes already lying around.

Re: A Post-Quantum Future for Let's Encrypt

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Vinge]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor_Vinge ) was a professor of mathematics and computer science. I'd expect him to get things right. Funny enough I don't remember that bit at all from fire upon the deep.

From Chapter 8, available online at https://deepness.trmm.net/c08b/ "Our main cargo is a one-time cryptographic pad. The source is Commercial Security at Sjandra Kei; the destination is the certificants' High colony. It was the usual arrangement: We're carrying a one-third xor of the pad. Independent shippers are carrying the others. At the destination, the three parts would be xor'd together. The result could supply…

Doesn’t mention anything about quantum there though. Symmetric keys are secure enough against a cryptographically relevant quantum computer, but OTP provides information theoretic security. As GGP mentioned AES should be fine as far as we know for the foreseeable future regardless, but for all we know some brilliant cryptographer will in fact find a flaw. With OTP one doesn’t have to worry about even the slightest chance that could happen. This excerpt also may be alluding to threshold cryptography (Shamir’s secret sharing) which got.. shared.. here recently as well, and also happens to be information theoretically secure.

Re: A Post-Quantum Future for Let's Encrypt

#113

https://soatok.blog/2026/04/13/hybrid-constructions-the-post... I wrote this in April. Many folks' misconceptions about post-quantum cryptography and "hybrid" constructions are answerable with this blog post.

There is nothing answered in there. Just "It'll be fine" and vague pointing at unrelated ecc vulnerabilities in some libs. It totally lacks any rational arguments.

Re: A Post-Quantum Future for Let's Encrypt

#114
post #28

Refreshing! Not wanting to be the "told you so" guy, I've been saying this for at least 2 years now: > Post-quantum authentication is no longer a problem the Web PKI ecosystem should defer. Long-lived keys (root certificate authorities, code-signing keys, identity systems) are particularly valuable targets, and new technology takes years to gain broad adoption, so the work has to start early. This is a problem that I…

You are right in that there are cases where signatures need to be quantum-safe, and they need to be urgently replaced because they will be long-lived.

But WebPKI, which letsencrypt is concerned with, doesn't need long-lived signatures at all. TLS connections live a few days at the most, that's how long the connection signatures have to hold up. The only thing that really needs some lifetime are CA certificate signatures and the CA keys themselves. And even for those CA certificates currently, CRQCs won't be a problem before they expire. And browser update cycles are quick enough that new CA certificates aren't that much of a problem anymore.

Re: A Post-Quantum Future for Let's Encrypt

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Chapter 8, available online at https://deepness.trmm.net/c08b/ "Our main cargo is a one-time cryptographic pad. The source is Commercial Security at Sjandra Kei; the destination is the certificants' High colony. It was the usual arrangement: We're carrying a one-third xor of the pad. Independent shippers are carrying the others. At the destination, the three parts would be xor'd together. The result could supply…

Doesn’t mention anything about quantum there though. Symmetric keys are secure enough against a cryptographically relevant quantum computer, but OTP provides information theoretic security. As GGP mentioned AES should be fine as far as we know for the foreseeable future regardless, but for all we know some brilliant cryptographer will in fact find a flaw. With OTP one doesn’t have to worry about even the slightest ch…

It's a universe where hypercomputation exists if you're willing to risk visiting the gods.

Re: A Post-Quantum Future for Let's Encrypt

#116
post #98
post #11

> In the common case, the entire authentication path in an MTC handshake is one signature, one public key, and one inclusion proof. That’s smaller than today’s Web PKI handshake, even though MTCs use post-quantum algorithms. [...] There is more to MTCs than size optimization. Because every certificate is part of a published Merkle tree, transparency becomes a property of issuance itself. Today’s Certificate Transpare…

The downside is that to get the size optimization, TLS servers will get moderately more complicated (they'll need to have multiple MTC certificates configured and select the right one depending on the client's state), and TLS clients will get considerably more complicated (they'll need to continuously download landmarks for each CA out-of-band from a trusted source). I expect many non-browser TLS clients won't suppor…

In a way it's just more of what we're already dealing with today.

The entire Linux ecosystem simply trusts Firefox's root CA store, and we're happy with distros repackaging and shipping it to us as-is every once in a while. OCSP has failed, so now Firefox is regularly shipping kilobyte-sized bloom filter updates to every browser to replace it with CRLite.

Doing the same for MTC landmark updates doesn't sound like too big of a change to me. The biggest challenge is going to be to get the wider ecosystem to adopt it: some kind of system-wide cron job to download the updates, or perhaps a "systemd-validate-mtc" helper.

The real challenge is going to be the embedded world. This kind of overhead is trivial for a desktop or a server, but a tiny embedded chip with only a few megs of ram and flash?

Re: A Post-Quantum Future for Let's Encrypt

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and very likely backdoored post-quantum algorithms Citation needed Here's mine: https://keymaterial.net/2025/11/27/ml-kem-mythbusting/

nsa & eu pushing for something to change proven algorithms makes me personally automatically distrustful as both are highly rotten bad actors. i have no knowledge, nor time to eval. (and probably few people do) all i am saying is there is no good reason to depreciate proven algs, especially not because those two institutions said so.

I'm not here to defend the NSA as it's treaded on liberties and rights countless times so far.

But understand this:

YES they have a vested interest in harvesting all of your private data for surveillance.

That doesn't mean they DON'T have a vested interest in safeguarding their own data and that of other gov't agencies.

They need the co-operation of the academic community and top cryptography experts to accomplish this. They cannot safeguard their own data or other agencies' data without publishing reports on what works and what doesn't.

So either they risk leaking the encryption algorithms that work for them by hiding them and only sharing the backdoored ones with the public, which is a violation of the [Kerchoff Principle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerckhoffs%27s_principle) and a massive risk.

Or they simply cooperate with experts and publish algorithms that work for both them and everyone else.

Which sounds simpler?

Re: A Post-Quantum Future for Let's Encrypt

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any value in first encrypting with a battle tested algorithm, and then encrypt again with the new algorithm?

Yes! It's called a hybrid cryptosystem, and what most projects are planning to use. The algorithms at risk are the asymmetric part (RSA, ECC, DH), not the symmetric parts (AES, ChaCha), so what is done for encryption is "generating" a secret with ML-KEM and another with ECC, combining them, and using that as key for AES or another symmetric algorithm for the actual encryption. So if you break only ECC or only ML-KEM,…

worth clarifying that you're both right that this is often referred to as a "hybrid", and there is the exceedingly unfortunate naming collision that "Hybrid Encryption" can also mean something separate, namely using a PKE encryption scheme (or KEM) to solely encrypt a secret key, and then using the secret key for bulk encryption. See for example the Hybrid Public Key Encryption (HPKE) RFC

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9180/

the unambiguous way to describe what you're talking about (not only for encryption) is the notion of a combiner, though it is admittedly mostly used in theoretical circles.

Also, your comparison between ML-KEM and ECC isn't right. ML-KEM is a KEM built from the Module Learning with Errors assumption, a lattice-based assumption. Part of how ML-KEM is built is by building a PKE scheme. This is an internal implementation detail though, and the FIPS standard explicitly states that they are only approved as part of building ML-KEM.

You can additionally build signatures from MLWE. For example, the ML-DSA scheme (which is a FIPS standard as well) does this. The issue is that lattice-based KEMs and signatures are atypically large compared to ECC precursors (this is what the blog post refers to).

Re: A Post-Quantum Future for Let's Encrypt

#119
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t mention anything about quantum there though. Symmetric keys are secure enough against a cryptographically relevant quantum computer, but OTP provides information theoretic security. As GGP mentioned AES should be fine as far as we know for the foreseeable future regardless, but for all we know some brilliant cryptographer will in fact find a flaw. With OTP one doesn’t have to worry about even the slightest ch…

It's a universe where hypercomputation exists if you're willing to risk visiting the gods.

Ah, hence the need for ITS.

Re: A Post-Quantum Future for Let's Encrypt

#120

nsa and eu pushing for replacement of the reliable algorithms with unproven and very likely backdoored post-quantum algorithms, when there is no real threat at all, is highly suspicious.

there is no even conjectured candidate for a backdoor in the standardized PQ schemes. This is different from other backdoors in the past, for example

1. for DUAL_EC_DRBG, the fact that it could hold a backdoor was understood quite early on

2. The S-box in the russian block ciphers Kuznyechik and Streebog was said to be randomly generated, but it was discovered to have extremely particular structure, which makes it exceedingly unlikely to be randomly generated.

Note that both of these "warning signs" are able to be seen even without understanding yet how to exploit them. To this day we do not know if Kuzynyechik and Streebog are backdoored (though it seems exceedingly likely).

Another point worth mentioning is that the design underlying ML-KEM could be instantiated in a way that would admit a backdoor. Very roughly, we would instantiate a "ML-KEM lattice", akin to how DLOG-based schemes instantiate DLOG groups (e.g. curve 25519, etc). This ML-KEM lattice could plausibly be attacked with a precomputation attack, akin to things like the LogJam attack against finite-field DH (there are even more fun things you can do if this standardized ML-KEM is just e.g. written down, rather than generated akin to a "nothing up my sleeve" number).

ML-KEM was specifically designed around this issue, and instead freshly samples a ML-KEM lattice for each exchanged key. Fortunately, it is quite easy to do this efficiently and securely for ML-KEM (freshly sampling a DLOG group to work in is neither efficient nor secure for elliptic-curve based cryptography).

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