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Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

kefir.protopopov.lv

111–120 of 142 posts

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#111
post #97

> I also do not want my future work to be exploited for naught in commercial purposes. Other people using your code to enrich their lives or businesses doesn't exploit you in any way, as it doesn't cost you a thing. This is irrational.

Also irrational because just as others benefit from his code, he benefits from theirs. LLMs fulfill the promise of Open Source, they don't violate it.

As long as they are universally available, that is. That's the part people should be concerned about.

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#112
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FOSS has always been about just writing code and putting it out into the world where others can do as they please with it. That is wrong. How can you write that with a straight face? There are projects that are put into the public domain (one major one comes to mind), but the clear majority of FOSS projects have strings attached which make the intention of the authors absolutely clear. IOW, if you're not happy with…

I mean, the most restrictive license, the GPL, was conceived specifically to protect the "four freedoms" and prevent subsequent modifications from violating them. The "copyleft" concept was specifically designed to create an ecosystem that behaved as if copyright didn't apply in the first place. I don't know how you can imply with a straight face that it did anything else. I don't know how you can possibly argue that…

> that behaved as if copyright didn't apply in the first place.

If copyright didn't exist then the share-alike and anti-tivoization clauses wouldn't work, FOSS in general wouldn't even protect attribution. Copyleft ecosystems depend on some amount of copyright law to uphold themselves.

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#113
post #57
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who break the social contract are the ones responsible for breaking the social contract, not the ones who take steps in response to social contract being broken.

So the questions here are (a) is any generally accepted social contract actually being broken, and (b) if so, who are the ones who are breaking it?

No one consented to training llms, as the op clearly implies, if they had been asked they would have declined to do so. As would all of the many copyright holders who are in the process of suing the model companies.

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#114
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latter. It's a tool, if using data is necessary to make the tool work, then its output derives from the data. If the LLM generation is not derivative of its training data, then why would it need the training data in the first place?

> It's a tool, if using data is necessary to make the tool work, then its output derives from the data. That's simply not correct within the applicable meaning of "derives" as understood in copyright law. In fact, data per se is not even within the scope of copyright protection in the first place: specific published works are copyrighted, but the underlying ideas and facts that they convey are not. Even creating work…

> That's simply not correct within the applicable meaning of "derives" as understood in copyright law.

Would be rather hard to write a definition that handles it properly back when LLMs didn't exist; not that laws particularly have anything to do with intent/desires behind FOSS anyway - intent is clearly there: you get code, under the condition that if you use it for anything, I get credited; else, you get nothing.

> In fact, data per se is not even within the scope of copyright protection in the first place: specific published works are copyrighted, but the underlying ideas and facts that they convey are not.

Luckily, FOSS is specific published works, and unless LLMs actually reasonably-provably do such decomposing into ideas/facts (good luck reasoning about that), that part is also irrelevant.

> If you applied the principle you're proposing here to human developers, you'd conclude that any code written by someone who learned to program by studying techniques used in FOSS software would in turn be a derivative work of that software. No one has ever regarded this to be the case.

Depending on intent, that very much can happen, it's called plagiarism. Good luck proving an LLMs intent. (not to mention the obvious differentiating factor of LLMs having arbitrarily-good memory unlike humans)

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#115
post #3

> Yet, this shift made me re-evaluate the open source code publishing. Prior to that, I have been positive about free and open software, and considered this to be the default mode for work such as kefir. I did not require any justifications from myself to publish something. Now, however, I feel more and more that the main beneficiaries of my unpaid work are companies scraping the internet to train large language mode…

This is essentially the digital world transforming from a high trust society into a low trust one. Sad to see.

This is kind of crazy. The digital world has never been a "society" except perhaps for the first few years after ARPANET was invented, and it certainly hasn't been a high-trust one for almost as long - we've had spam filters, user account registration required to comment, various authentication methods, moderation, and various things you get in a low-trust environment for decades now. To think otherwise is a bit delusional.

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#117
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is extremely false. Copyright additionally grants you exclusive control over the production and distribution of derivative works. A derivative work is a work that itself includes copyrighted content from the original work. That is to say that for something to be a derivative work, some measure of its content must be "CTRL-C, CTRL-V" from the originating work. Something that's merely inspired by another work, o…

> A derivative work is a work that itself includes copyrighted content from the original work. If you put a GPL C program through Emscripten to run in a browser the output doesn't include the original C code but it's surely a derivative work. > Someone who looks at a dozen code examples in public repos to learn how to do e.g. a quick sort, then upon understanding the logic flow of the quick sort algorithm, writes his…

Perhaps the future will be less Idiocracy and more Futurama, with humans and robots living socially together.

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#118
post #3

> Yet, this shift made me re-evaluate the open source code publishing. Prior to that, I have been positive about free and open software, and considered this to be the default mode for work such as kefir. I did not require any justifications from myself to publish something. Now, however, I feel more and more that the main beneficiaries of my unpaid work are companies scraping the internet to train large language mode…

This is essentially the digital world transforming from a high trust society into a low trust one. Sad to see.

I don't think the digital world was ever high trust. I mean, everyone above a certain age is trained to never click on the biggest download button on a page and to uncheck any checkboxes during an installation. A certain open source forge used to bundle malware in downloads. You can't walk two steps without hitting cloudflare. All email providers consider random VPS IP ranges to be spam farms. All web servers with public IPs must be up to date or you get pwned instantly and assimilated into a bot farm.

I can go on and on about how much safety measurements we take online since ages ago and how little trust we have for anything that comes through an Ethernet port. I have never needed such levels of vigilance in real life even though I live somewhere with higher crime rates compared to the national average.

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#119
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who are making stuff because they want to share it are still going to be publishing. And fighting to be noticed in an unending torrent of slop.

Without any material or immaterial benefits? And with one's work being ground up and turned into weights for the next version of the machine that's threatening one's employment?

I personally am sharing stuff because I want people to read my comics, and maybe join my crowdfunding campaigns.

If I could put everyone pushing all this AI crap into a meat grinder, I would.

Re: Cessation of public development of Kefir C compiler

#120
post #73
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the questions here are (a) is any generally accepted social contract actually being broken, and (b) if so, who are the ones who are breaking it?

The contract behind open source was something like (GPL): "If you copy my work, you should share your work too." or at minimum (MIT): "If you copy my work, you should credit me." I think it is no longer under dispute that the legal contract is satisfied by LLMs. The AI companies won and will continue to win. But we are talking about a social contract, which is not quite the same thing. The social contract is what lea…

> "If you copy my work, you should share your work too."

Not exactly. The GPL way is that you should share my work under the same terms if you want to share it, even if modifying it.

You are not required to share anything if you don't actually share anything, and just run it yourself. That's where all the criticism towards cloud providers who freely use FLOSS is directed.

> But we are talking about a social contract, which is not quite the same thing. The social contract is what leads some devs who previously enjoyed publishing their work openly to no longer feel the same way.

There is clearly a misalignment in expectations from some FLOSS enthusiasts. The main FLOSS licenses focus exclusively on distribution, but their expectations somehow extend well beyond distribution. We hear those FLOSS enthusiasts criticize and attack companies for using software exactly according to their terms, and somehow that is framed as abuse if said users happen to be bigger than some arbitrary boundary.

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