You weren't meant to have a boss (2008) • Hacker News Board

Re: You weren't meant to have a boss (2008)

#111

Post by jimbokun » Sun, May 31, 2026, 8:35 PM UTC

rexpop wrote: post #79

antipurist wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of any relevant research, but to answer the "So what can we do about it?" question I have a wild idea: invert the power structure, with cooperative of workers hiring their managers instead of managers hiring workers. And no, this doesn't automatically lead to the same tree, just inverted, it could form a much flatter structure. I imagine that a cooperative can hire a person who measures the value genera…

"a person who measures the value generated by each worker/team" seems... impossible.

The only mechanism like that I’m aware of is the market, but a large organization shields smaller teams and individuals from being measured by it.

Re: You weren't meant to have a boss (2008)

#112

Post by jimbokun » Sun, May 31, 2026, 8:35 PM UTC

xboxnolifes wrote: post #103

marssaxman wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what can we do about it? For starters, you can understand that working for a large corporation will make you miserable, and choose to work in a small organization instead.

Individually, one can try to choose for a small org. Collectively, there isn't enough small org work to go around.

There is if you start one yourself.

Re: You weren't meant to have a boss (2008)

#113

Post by foxygen » Sun, May 31, 2026, 8:41 PM UTC

jimbokun wrote: post #112

xboxnolifes wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individually, one can try to choose for a small org. Collectively, there isn't enough small org work to go around.

There is if you start one yourself.

And who will you hire if everyone decides to do that?

Re: You weren't meant to have a boss (2008)

#114

Post by jimbokun » Sun, May 31, 2026, 8:42 PM UTC

xeiotos wrote: post #20

zkmon wrote: post #9

I don't think the analogies of animals in the wild or groups of hunter-gatherer is correct to the modern companies. A better analogy is the teams who built pyramids or armies who empowered Alexander or the medieval peasant settlements who regulated societies. It's not about acting on your own or achieving something for yourself. It's about building something which is only possible with collective effort of hundreds o…

I concur the analogy misses this reason for teaming up in large groups completely. All our current advances are the direct result of working in large, communicating groups, which crucially need a way to transfer knowledge across generations. The YouTube channel “How to make everything” comes to mind, where the resources, processes, machinery… required make it tricky for something as mundane as a hairdryer to be built…

Well that’s simply a question of whether we are at a point yet where we can implement UBI and provide for everyone’s needs and wants without requiring anyone to work.

I don’t think the robots are at that point yet.

Re: You weren't meant to have a boss (2008)

#115

Post by jimbokun » Sun, May 31, 2026, 8:44 PM UTC

randallsquared wrote: post #14

zkmon wrote: post #9

I don't think the analogies of animals in the wild or groups of hunter-gatherer is correct to the modern companies. A better analogy is the teams who built pyramids or armies who empowered Alexander or the medieval peasant settlements who regulated societies. It's not about acting on your own or achieving something for yourself. It's about building something which is only possible with collective effort of hundreds o…

That collective effort resulted in something very impressive, but there are lots of achievements in the present day which are, organizationally, at least as impressive, and which do not seem to require hierarchy (though they include various hierarchies). The chain of processes and activities that result in a modern supermarket and all its products, for example, has no overarching boss, and some of the steps along the…

But the modern supermarket also has many large hierarchical organizations contributing well, from the supermarket chains to industrial farms to giant processed food brands. For better or worse.

Re: You weren't meant to have a boss (2008)

#116

Post by ziptron » Sun, May 31, 2026, 8:45 PM UTC

What PG wrote here truly resonates. I worked for a large Co and then 7 years ago started my own thing.

At first it felt unnatural. Doing something that most others are not feels wrong. Eventually, once I accepted the daily feeling of ambiguity created through exploring a limitless world, I knew I had made the right decision.

My advice to anyone navigating the transition is to ensure you first setup something for initial survival (e.g., figure out how to freelance, find a flexible job, learn a skill).

Having even a bit of money flowing in (irrespective of the amount really) while not being tied to a large Corp gave me that initial sense of freedom I needed to truly think big. It kept me from "giving up" and going back.

It's a slippery slope though, if you get too used to just doing freelance, you've built around yourself artificial barriers similar to those that exited before for you. You will gravitate to the easier projects because they will have the best ROI for you on your time.

Find the right balance. Just enough freelance to live, but not too much where you're not trying new things and truly learning how to build long term value.

Re: You weren't meant to have a boss (2008)

#117

Post by lowercased » Sun, May 31, 2026, 8:45 PM UTC

jimbokun wrote: post #107

YZF wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Want to find out? Start a new company with this idea. I worked at a tech company where the founders wanted to do things differently so they did. Not exactly what you describe but generally more power to the individuals vs. management. It worked reasonably well until the company grew large, acquired another large company, and was eventually acquired by yet another company.

Yeah a lot of management isn’t just a desire for power and control over others, but just the unglamorous and boring work of tracking what everyone is working on and how it fits into the bigger picture. In large organizations it becomes harder and harder for individual contributors to see how their work fits into the larger organization.

"In large organizations it becomes harder and harder for individual contributors to see how their work fits into the larger organization."

... because the planning and reasoning and vision aren't shared? As an IC - in small and large companies - I would often get this "you just don't understand" and "you don't see the big picture". Well.. because it's not shared. Decisions made in secret, or in boardrooms without any transparency... yeah - of course I don't have the full picture. I bet half the upper management doesn't either - they all just have their slices.

Some companies - typically smaller - sometimes have shared details on direction/vision/etc enough so that everyone could have a common shared sense of purpose and goals. But I've found that to be relatively rare.

Re: You weren't meant to have a boss (2008)

#118

Post by jimbokun » Sun, May 31, 2026, 8:49 PM UTC

lazy_afternoons wrote: post #39

I once worked for a unicorn (1B valuation) company where there were there were No mangers, no product managers, no appraisal (30% hike or out) The rule was "I will treat you like an adult and you have to act like one" Easily the best company I worked for and best Colleuges. But I have seen this model hiccup once it reached ~70 engineers. May be because of the structure or may be it's difficult to hire more such engin…

Maybe a Dunbar’s number thing?

Re: You weren't meant to have a boss (2008)

#119

Post by MithrilTuxedo » Sun, May 31, 2026, 8:49 PM UTC

dentemple wrote: post #34

Without a firm proposal of what a company can or should do instead, this just becomes another example of complaints being easier to make than actual solutions. We all know that large corps are structured in a way that eliminates individual initiative. So what can we do about it? I've heard of "hierarchy-less" company structures being attempted before. I've also heard that each and every one of those attempts always e…

>Is there any research out that offers tree-less company structures that might actually work in the real world?

Elinor Ostrom's design principles for managing common pool resources (2009 econ Nobel) indicate that nested enterprises have been necessary to scale throughout human history.

Re: You weren't meant to have a boss (2008)

#120

Post by HWR_14 » Sun, May 31, 2026, 9:09 PM UTC

jimbokun wrote: post #108

weakfish wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone should coin a law that any time something vaguely cooperative or worker-focused is proposed, someone will inevitably reply that it will fail because the Soviet Union did something sort of maybe similar once.

It certainly has to be considered. China and the Soviet Union are the largest scale attempts to implement a cooperative system and they failed in spectacular and tragic ways. So you certainly need to consider why the new plan will be different and won’t meet the same fate.

China failed? They seem to be doing well to me.