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That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

science.org

111–120 of 204 posts

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#111
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe they tried to inject some chemicals to slow the reaction, but the pump and/or valves failed and clogged.

I was thinking maybe have those chemicals sitting in a glass or temperature sensitive container inside the tank. So when there's too much pressure or heat, the container containing the neutralizing chemical is broken like a fuse and the chemical is automatically released.

Having the chemical in one location doesn't make it active all over, you need to disperse it. Like you need to shake glow-in-the-dark bracelets.

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why wouldn't there be passive protection systems designed in? Because the US chemical industry has been effectively unregulated for a century and can do whatever it pleases. There's a neutralizing chemical that could have been injected to stop the exothermic reaction in its tracks. They didn't have it on site. A "response team" (likely a contractor that responds to chemical emergencies) did, but by the time they sh…

I feel like these arguments are always framed as an evil corporation wants to take advantage of consumers. Except that's misdirection. The guilty party isn't the corporation, it's you, the consumer. And the corporations are already regulated. Heavily. You want Gore-Tex (expanded PTFE) boots, Cobalt EV batteries (Child labor in the DRC), Solar Panels (Open pit quartz mines), Wind Turbine Blades (Epoxy Resins & glass-l…

The idea that "If corporations can't do whatever they want, including put everyone's lives at risk, nobody will be able to have anything nice" is a commonly seen argument but of course it's a lie. Companies might make less profit if they had to act responsibly but they'd still make profits. Those that failed to don't deserve to exist and should get out of the way so that a more efficient and capable company can take their place.

The same argument could be made for all kinds of unreasonable demands. If there were products that couldn't be profitably made and sold without slavery do you think we should all just accept that slavery? We, as a society, make choices all the time that certain products, industries, and practices aren't worth the costs. Sometimes it's perfectly fine to bankrupt companies and kill entire industries to do it.

By all indications child porn could be a massively profitably industry. For a long time it was. As a society we decided that crossed a line, and we petitioned our government to outlaw it and enforce that regulation on the porn industry. The economy didn't collapse when we did. It's just as reasonable for the public to decide to demand better safety from the chemical industry and ask the government to regulate that as well. It's been done many times in various forms already. The economy didn't collapse then either.

We'd agree that there is a middle ground to aim for most of the time though. The problem we have now is that government is being bribed to ignore what voters want and roll back many of the regulations we demanded. Incidents like this one remind us that companies should be expected and required to do better, but as long as government can keep accepting piles of cash in exchange for ignoring the rest of us it's not going to be easy to convince the government to do their job. There's also been an increasing amount of voter suppression to make it harder to fire and replace corrupt government with people who will do their job.

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re reversing causality. People don’t want gore-tex, and they don’t want cobalt batteries. They want dry boots and transportation. If some corporation comes along and says they have dry boots and electric cars, it is not realistic to expect every single consumer in a society to become expertly informed on fluorochemistry or the economics of mining, and then also expect them to make the decision that is best for al…

But it is a nice dodge for those profiting from outsourcing costs on the public. From one angle, that is all modern corporations are: a mechanism for offloading costs onto the public, while privately pocketing the profit.

Which is they they all should be regulated to make sure that they're doing more good for society than harm.

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why wouldn't there be passive protection systems designed in? Because the US chemical industry has been effectively unregulated for a century and can do whatever it pleases. There's a neutralizing chemical that could have been injected to stop the exothermic reaction in its tracks. They didn't have it on site. A "response team" (likely a contractor that responds to chemical emergencies) did, but by the time they sh…

>Because the US chemical industry has been effectively unregulated for a century and can do whatever it pleases. And yet I bet if I look there's actually a ton of regulation. >Chemical A is found to be cancerous Chemical A is assumed to be cancerous by the state of California, you mean?

> And yet I bet if I look there's actually a ton of regulation.

I'll bet a ton of that regulation is insufficient, and/or paid for, or even written by, the industry to make it harder for competitors or to allow them to increase their profits by cutting corners.

Regulation isn't some on/off switch that always makes things better or worse. What matters is what those regulations are and who they serve.

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like these arguments are always framed as an evil corporation wants to take advantage of consumers. Except that's misdirection. The guilty party isn't the corporation, it's you, the consumer. And the corporations are already regulated. Heavily. You want Gore-Tex (expanded PTFE) boots, Cobalt EV batteries (Child labor in the DRC), Solar Panels (Open pit quartz mines), Wind Turbine Blades (Epoxy Resins & glass-l…

You’re reversing causality. People don’t want gore-tex, and they don’t want cobalt batteries. They want dry boots and transportation. If some corporation comes along and says they have dry boots and electric cars, it is not realistic to expect every single consumer in a society to become expertly informed on fluorochemistry or the economics of mining, and then also expect them to make the decision that is best for al…

Exactly, the burden for better behavior lies with the people with the power, agency, and information.

The consumer is did not decide on the formulation of Chemical X, they weren't there to see the day it accidentally melted through the floor, and if the customer was somehow a hyper-motivated scientist with the right training, the company isn't gonna share the data.

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#116

When this is all over, when they peel the metal tank away, will they have a gigantic clear block of material?

Transparent Aluminum

Oh we have that too, it's used as high end window armor in some armored vehicles, it's called AlON (Aluminum OxyNitride).

It's amazing stuff.

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#117

What a disaster and complete failure on the local government in the way they handled this situation. If we ever get hit by an earthquake or other larger disaster, it's safe to assume we're all on our own. Also, as someone affected by this, it has been extremely frustrating getting updates via xitter. Do we really have no other options?

> it has been extremely frustrating getting updates via xitter. Do we really have no other options?

It is amazing how the modern world has a webpage for every organisation but they can't bloody update it usefully and use a random platform (Xitter, Mastodon, Bluesky, facebook) instead.

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why wouldn't there be passive protection systems designed in? Because the US chemical industry has been effectively unregulated for a century and can do whatever it pleases. There's a neutralizing chemical that could have been injected to stop the exothermic reaction in its tracks. They didn't have it on site. A "response team" (likely a contractor that responds to chemical emergencies) did, but by the time they sh…

I feel like these arguments are always framed as an evil corporation wants to take advantage of consumers. Except that's misdirection. The guilty party isn't the corporation, it's you, the consumer. And the corporations are already regulated. Heavily. You want Gore-Tex (expanded PTFE) boots, Cobalt EV batteries (Child labor in the DRC), Solar Panels (Open pit quartz mines), Wind Turbine Blades (Epoxy Resins & glass-l…

You present this as if consumers were truthfully informed of all the ecological and labor impacts of products they buy. In many cases contrary is true, companies don't inform the customers, try to hide the impacts or downplay the impacts. Using outsourcing and very difficult to trace supply chains is often way to prevent informed public.

Re: That Methyl Methacrylate Tank

#119
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that it doesn’t dry out; it polymerizes, and the reaction is catalyzed by water, which is why cyanoacrylate glues will stick your fingertips together instantly but will not as rapidly stick plastics or metals together.

There are superglue(CA) accelerators sold, is that just a big scam? Because as far as I can tell a spray bottle with water works just as well.

Not a scam.

Also, your breath might help in a pinch (it's humid).

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