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A look at Denver’s “Unlocking Housing Choices” plan

freerange.city

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Re: A look at Denver’s “Unlocking Housing Choices” plan

#111
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why we must overturn zoning - governments should not have the right to tell you how much you can build. Then we have a shot of forcing permitting to be faster. Make the delay a taking!

Want to see what no zoning looks like? Find your nearest organic strip mall development road, then imagine that in a neighborhood.

Strip malls exist specifically because the are the unit of commercial development that is incentivized by zoning v1.

In the 1970s-80s You People (TM) (as a group, not you personally because you're not that old, probably) decided you wanted to segregate commercial and residential and you wanted setbacks and min parking. So strip malls became because they became the minimum viable commercial development displacing the right on the street, maybe set back by ~20ft if you have parking (usually 90deg from the road) at the storefront multi tenant commercial buildings that dominated previously.

And so now you say that's ugly, that's not walkable, we want mixed use, we want parking in back, etc, etc.

The problem isn't that your rules were wrong. The problem is that anyone let you micromanage in the first place. So the solution isn't to adopt zoning v2, v3, etc. It's to stop letting you micromanage.

Re: A look at Denver’s “Unlocking Housing Choices” plan

#112
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why we must overturn zoning - governments should not have the right to tell you how much you can build. Then we have a shot of forcing permitting to be faster. Make the delay a taking!

Want to see what no zoning looks like? Find your nearest organic strip mall development road, then imagine that in a neighborhood.

I'm very very familiar with this topic. The other commenter nailed it - strip malls were caused by restrictive zoning. There's a reason they never happened before so-called "single family" (aka white) zoning started.

Re: A look at Denver’s “Unlocking Housing Choices” plan

#113
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Want to see what no zoning looks like? Find your nearest organic strip mall development road, then imagine that in a neighborhood.

Strip malls exist specifically because the are the unit of commercial development that is incentivized by zoning v1. In the 1970s-80s You People (TM) (as a group, not you personally because you're not that old, probably) decided you wanted to segregate commercial and residential and you wanted setbacks and min parking. So strip malls became because they became the minimum viable commercial development displacing the…

> minimum viable commercial development

This is fundamentally what we're talking about.

A business that requires a retail footprint in 2026 is going to want to do that in the cheapest, most controlled way possible.

If McDonalds could buy formerly-SFH/R lots and build stores with 2 parking spaces + street parking, that's exactly what they would do. There's too much money not to.

We can gripe about zoning's effectiveness in producing "good" cities, but I'm far less sympathetic to arguments against its existence.

Without zoning limits, you get nasty, brutish, and short city lives where sociopathic businesses are concerned.

Re: A look at Denver’s “Unlocking Housing Choices” plan

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is clearly cherry picked because the graph begins in 2015, which (as you can see in the one I linked) is the exact peak of the new build house sizes. I mean... That was exactly the point. > A more honest article would show a larger date range. Sure. It provides an even better illustration about how the runaway urbanism resulted in breaking the previous trend of increasing living area. > Additionally, I feel it m…

>I mean... That was exactly the point. Great. So we agree it is cherry picked. > Sure. It provides an even better illustration about how the runaway urbanism resulted in breaking the previous trend of increasing living area. I don't follow the logic here. Why would 2015 be the tipping point? What's so special about that year? The US has been increasingly urbanizing since WW2. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metric…

> Great. So we agree it is cherry picked.

Got it. You have no idea what you're talking about. "Cherry-picking" means finding parts of data that go against the actual trend but "confirm" your point.

> I don't follow the logic here. Why would 2015 be the tipping point? What's so special about that year? The US has been increasingly urbanizing since WW2.

The tipping point was around 2010-2011, it just took some time to become visible. I love bureaucracy; it's the greatest invention of humanity. I traced the policy changes that started the enshittification in earnest to around that time.

For example, that's the year when Seattle's DoT changed the road scoring method so that a field with trenches would get a perfect score. SF started its war-on-cars around the same time and passed the "Twitter exemption".

> Just to be clear, you're suggesting that people are having fewer kids (fertility had a recent peak in 2007) because new builds (which are just a small percentage of total housing stock!) have lost a few square feet? I find that to be laughable.

People are having fewer kids because inner cities are inimical to having _multiple_ children. One child is fine, but 3 children are almost impossible without a parent staying at home.

It's not the _sole_ reason, but it very much is _a_ reason. And you can trace that correlation throughout all the developed world, including the bike hellscape of the Netherlands. And transit availability only _strengthens_ the correlation.

> Sports venues. Concerts. Festivals. Parades. Any large gathering of people.

So basically: nothing. Nothing here justifies the ginormous expense and the associated deterioration in the quality of life.

> 1. There are more than just offices in CBDs. There are also retail, restaurants, entertainment venues, residential, etc.

No, there is not. Entertainment venues, restaraunts, etc. can just as much stay distributed through the city.

> 2. This ignores the benefit to the worker. And employer/employee relationship goes two-ways. You assign all the benefits to the employers (who gain access to a larger talent pool), while ignoring the fact that this benefits workers too by increasing the pool of jobs they can reliably and comfortably commute to.

Ha. I have numbers for that ( https://www.nature.com/articles/s42949-021-00020-2 ). A worker in the 80-s US could access 2x workplaces compared to their counterpart in Europe within a 30-minute commute. Because of cars.

If you shackle yourself to transit, your world rapidly shrinks into tiny "beads" of accessible area outside of stations. While a car provides you true point-to-point travel freedom.

> Not seeing that $150k per household number anywhere in that article. Looks like $10k per person is the number they come up with.

This is the _additional_ expense per _person_. I have calculations from the recent estimates.

Re: A look at Denver’s “Unlocking Housing Choices” plan

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I mean... That was exactly the point. Great. So we agree it is cherry picked. > Sure. It provides an even better illustration about how the runaway urbanism resulted in breaking the previous trend of increasing living area. I don't follow the logic here. Why would 2015 be the tipping point? What's so special about that year? The US has been increasingly urbanizing since WW2. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metric…

> Great. So we agree it is cherry picked. Got it. You have no idea what you're talking about. "Cherry-picking" means finding parts of data that go against the actual trend but "confirm" your point. > I don't follow the logic here. Why would 2015 be the tipping point? What's so special about that year? The US has been increasingly urbanizing since WW2. The tipping point was around 2010-2011, it just took some time to…

the bike hellscape of the Netherlands

what is that supposed to mean? most other places people talk favorably about biking in the netherlands. and i can confirm that, i have been traveling there on a bike myself.

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