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American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

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Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#111

Post by gib444 »

senordevnyc wrote: post #102
gib444 wrote: post #23

I feel there is a trend of not fully appreciating what fathers who spend less time with kids actually do. I think that's unfair, frankly. Many of them do things that contribute to the family in other ways. What was my Dad busy doing? Focusing on his career in order to provide for his family. Doing hobbies that increased his skill set. Fixing the house to ensure we all had a nice safe place to live. Tending to the gar…

Strongly agree. I know so many men who are the sole provider for their families and their wives are unhappy about how things like childcare and household chores aren’t split more fairly, but they seem to have zero appreciation for the crushing burden of financially supporting a family for decades. It’s hard, stressful, and wears you down. Almost all of the stay at home moms I know get more sleep, more exercise, and m…

> but they seem to have zero appreciation for the crushing burden of financially supporting a family for decades. It’s hard, stressful, and wears you down.

Absolutely. They will though, when two parents working fully becomes a requirement instead of an option, as we are seeing in many HCOL areas. Or even, as many wish, to be the primary earner and the man stay at home.

In fact, the burden on the sole earner as you point out, is /increasing/ during this transition - costs are rising due to the expectation that two people will contribute financially to the mortgage and other expenses. Another issue that women don't tend to appreciate.

At that point, neither parent can catch a break, and the family and children suffer.

But this equality of opportunity is exactly what women fought extremely hard for. It's a shame that marriage and the kids are sometimes the victims of the side effects.

(I'm gay fwiw and not a misogynist. I do root for women's rights but not blindly. Demanding massive societal change comes with responsibilities)

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#112

Post by jaredklewis »

Ancapistani wrote: post #106

Not directly relevant to the article, but I'm curious if anyone else has connected the fact that fathers are spending more time being close with their children at the same time average global testosterone levels have dropped without a solid explanation? To be clear, I'm not trying to point a causal arrow here, or even say it's good or bad. I read a study the other day that asserted that fathers who spent more time pa…

> testosterone levels have dropped without a solid explanation

There is a solid explanation.

First, before the adoption of mass spec, studies used a less accurate method of measuring testosterone that overstated testosterone levels.

Also, the studies showing the population level decline in testosterone generally controlled for obesity (which naturally lowers testosterone) using BMI. But BMI is a very crude measure.

When studies control with better methods like BMI + waist circumference, and only compare samples using the mass spec measurement method, the unexplained population level decline goes away. After fixing the measurement method, what remains of the decline can be explained by BMI + waist circumference. In other words, modern men are more prone to obesity and metabolic syndrome, which naturally reduces testosterone. Case closed.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22150314/

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#113

Post by kelipso »

krapp wrote: post #110
kelipso wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But when leftists says things like community support, it doesn't bring up images of traditional villages and extended families. It brings up images of communists saying things like abolish the family. Naturally, due to their history. It's not like leftists are known for their traditional family values now or then, so why should it be taken that way?

Yes, when you intentionally take what leftists say in bad faith and stereotype them negatively, then the bad faith interpretation and negative stereotypes make sense. But normal people don't hear "communism" when leftists say "community support." Also given how many people espousing "traditional family values" among the right turn out to be abusers, pedophiles, rapists, deadbeats, etc, what you might consider "tradit…

[dead]

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#114

Post by illiac786 »

Ancapistani wrote: post #108
nradov wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those household structures aren't popular , they're just common when women have no other options. I have nothing against those structures, they work great for some families. But the reality is that they often force the wife into becoming an unpaid caregiver for her in-laws (who constantly criticize how she runs the household).

It's 2026. Barring severe manipulation/abuse, why would you choose to get married and have children if you're a woman who doesn't want to raise them?

Severely missing the point here. It’s about being criticised and not recognised while doing so. It’s about lack of choice – and no, when you’re 25, you don’t know what this does to you over time. And when you finally do, it’s too late, you’re not going to run away with your kids and no job.

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#115

Post by illiac786 »

purplerabbit wrote: post #98
nradov wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those household structures aren't popular , they're just common when women have no other options. I have nothing against those structures, they work great for some families. But the reality is that they often force the wife into becoming an unpaid caregiver for her in-laws (who constantly criticize how she runs the household).

So confidently stated! My wife had ludicrous options and chose it — what draws you to this conclusion?

Parent said often, not always. Counter examples is an anecdote.

I would like to see good statistics on this.

And your wife’s opinion on her choices.

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#116

Post by emptysongglass »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #22

> Millennial fathers have roughly tripled the amount of time they spend with kids. I think this really undersells it. My mom parented a few hours a week. My kids (like most) lived under ceaseless 24/7 adulting. The time I spent with my sons was more like a 20x increase over my parents' generation. Past that, it seems like it's taking forever for anyone to notice the radical changes in modern parenting/childhood. Alon…

I agree this is a terrible loss. On the other hand, new dads are actually learning how to feel their feelings, communicate those feelings in a healthy way, and tell their children they love them.

Millennial dads were (mostly) a distant mess who for whatever reason saw the expression of feelings as "weak".

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#117

Post by compiler-guy »

IcyWindows wrote: post #90
compiler-guy wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing about trends in aggregate data. It tells very little about the details of any particular situation. There are almost certainly a wide variety of subgroups where this particular trend doesn't hold, and others where the changes are even more dramatic. But the aggregate trend is quite clear.

Isn't the point that there is no way to get reliable data on this? How would aggregation of unreliable data help?

The data is reasonably reliable, at least in the view of the team that published the paper, and those who reviewed it. No one claims it is perfect.

And the post that started this sub thread was about how their experience didn’t show the trend. But no one in the social sciences expects every sample to follow the trend. There will be numerous exceptions. Just like sometimes when one rolls a pair of dice one gets a twelve.

That twelve is an absolutely an accurate sample from the data but just because one sometimes gets an outlier it doesn’t mean that there is no central tendency.

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#118

Post by pertymcpert »

tayo42 wrote: post #9
pertymcpert wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have to disagree as a father. The real benefit is the father and child who are now bonding. That doesn't mean the mother can't also bond, it just means it's not one sided.

The mother's are now working. So they're bonding less. I think that's what he means not that father's are taking away mother-child bonding time.

Except if anyone bothered to read the damn article you'd see that the research showed the highly educated were more likely to have involved fathers. Those are not going to be forced as the person seems to imply.

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#119

Post by Ancapistani »

jaredklewis wrote: post #112
Ancapistani wrote: post #106

Not directly relevant to the article, but I'm curious if anyone else has connected the fact that fathers are spending more time being close with their children at the same time average global testosterone levels have dropped without a solid explanation? To be clear, I'm not trying to point a causal arrow here, or even say it's good or bad. I read a study the other day that asserted that fathers who spent more time pa…

> testosterone levels have dropped without a solid explanation There is a solid explanation. First, before the adoption of mass spec, studies used a less accurate method of measuring testosterone that overstated testosterone levels. Also, the studies showing the population level decline in testosterone generally controlled for obesity (which naturally lowers testosterone) using BMI. But BMI is a very crude measure. W…

That study appears to be US only, while global studies have shown the effect.

For that matter, some _animal_ studies have shown declining testosterone as well. That doesn't seem to be well-studied, but if it holds up it would make me lean toward it being something environmental (e.g. microplastic pollution)

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#120

Post by mc3301 »

kelipso wrote: post #103
david-gpu wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found that /r/daddit was full of pictures of dads with infants. On the other hand, /r/parenting was full of moms desperate because their partners didn't to their part. It really paints a picture, if you think about it.

It's like how /r/steak is just dudes posting steak pictures, and there is some new cooking sub where it's just women posting food pictures and complaining about their significant others. Women be complaining.

I'm not sure how serious you are about the dismissive "women be complaining" comment. A big part of your perception may be that women have more to 'complain' about; society is measurably unfair for women. Another part could be that when women voice their struggles it is called "complaining," and when men voice their struggles they are "being serious." Also, men get shot down for showing vulnerability and seeking support, so their struggles are internal. And this isn't always good for mental health.
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