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New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

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Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#111
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with native command over Hindi and, unless it's spoken by folks from certain UK countries, English, who also spoke and read Sanskrit quite well during school, I had a period of a few months when I went down the rabbit-hole of wonderful general linguistic history and the interrelation among them. I was shocked beyond imagination to see how we might actually have been more the same than different, if we go b…

I’ve long thought about how wonderful it would be to create a contemporary new hybrid language whose objective was to unify communication along the very common linguistic origins at least some language clusters have. The core challenge of course is that it would be contrived in a time when top down imposition does not work as effectively. It’s a dream I have nonetheless. It would be a gargantuan effort just alone to…

Yes I’ve been having similar thoughts - how amazing would it be to have a common global tongue. Last time I looked, Chinese and the Spanish were the two most spoken languages, at least counting native speakers - there are other legit ways to measure this! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of...)

What I’m personally curious about is the goal to prevent extinction of languages. Isn’t that fully at odds with the goal to unify languages? In a single language, we can’t possibly keep enough of even just the Germanic languages for anyone to feel like their language was preserved, and we’re talking about something that also has to work for all the wildly different language families is Asian, African, Slavic, Indian, and South American countries, just to name a few. I’m not sure it’s possible to borrow from languages in any way that preserves them. The thought I keep having is that maybe the goal to preserve languages is working against us. Yes it’s sad to lose some languages, but I think it was sad for the languages to split in the first place, and it would be amazing if there was a common language.

What about the idea of archiving all the languages we have, so the history is there, and then after that dropping the objective to preserve any of them? Still a gargantuan effort, but maybe being able to focus on unification and ignore preservation would help us get there? This is a hypothetical, of course, pie in the sky dreaming… but I share at least part of your dream. Language will continue to evolve as it always has, and maybe geopolitics will drive us toward one or a few languages being super common.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#112
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing both Norwegian and Dutch, most words here is surprisingly similar to modern words: hefenricæs = himmelrikes (no) uerc = werk (nl) eci = evig (no) / eeuwig (nl) ærist = eerst (nl) barnum = barn (no) sceppend = schepper (nl) EDIT: Hearing the poem read also gives dutch / germanic vibes: https://gutenberg.org/files/19677/ogg/19677.ogg

If it weren't for the Norman invasion, English would probably still have the same levels of semi-mutual-intelligibility as the other Scandinavian languages.

well, if the Normans had simply spoken Norse as one would expect Norsemen to do...

I recently tried some light research (ok, i ddg'ed) recently on this topic as it wasn't that long between the Viking invasions and settling down in claimed territory, "how continuing-to-be-Norse were the Normans?" I was looking at a similar idea to another comment/statement here from a Scandinavian, "would the Normans have maintained enough knowledge of Norse language to have seen connections to Anglo Saxon/Olde Ænglish? (ok, i just wanted to use a ligature)

I didn't find it easy to to find specifics in great detail, but interestingly in William the Conquerer's family tree, his great^n-grandparents and their cohort were frequently marrying French noble women for local connections and prestige, but also having children with their "soulmate" Norsewoman side piece, made more convenient because the Norse marriage practice was more akin to "common law marriage" anyway.

I'm not reading or judging anything into this (what noble of any culture wouldn't pursue extramarital relations, hell the peasants do it too) except from variety of partners they were clearly maintaining connections to their heritage at least as Italian- or Irish-Americans frequently do in the current day.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#113
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve long thought about how wonderful it would be to create a contemporary new hybrid language whose objective was to unify communication along the very common linguistic origins at least some language clusters have. The core challenge of course is that it would be contrived in a time when top down imposition does not work as effectively. It’s a dream I have nonetheless. It would be a gargantuan effort just alone to…

Yes I’ve been having similar thoughts - how amazing would it be to have a common global tongue. Last time I looked, Chinese and the Spanish were the two most spoken languages, at least counting native speakers - there are other legit ways to measure this! ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of... ) What I’m personally curious about is the goal to prevent extinction of languages. Isn’t that ful…

The official position of modern IAL advocates like Esperantists is that everyone should be bilingual in a local or family language as well as in the world language. There is someone on HN who has pointed out (I forgot exactly when) that this is actually not the historical tradition in Esperanto, but it's extremely strong nowadays.

I guess one thing that leads to divergent attitudes about multilingualism and language planning is people's different intuitions about whether bilingualism is easy or hard. Some people feel bilingualism is literally automatic (just have children regularly spend time in different language environments), while some people feel it's expensive or prone to failure modes where some children favor one language or another, suffer cross-linguistic interference (which might not harm their intelligibility at all in their own immediate environments, but might be at odds with language planning goals), or become less than fully fluent or less than fully literate in one or more languages.

I was taught the "bilingualism is automatic" view and I know there's a lot of scientific consensus behind it, but it also seems like the fine details are complicated: not all children and not all adults will be enthusiastic about achieving and maintaining equal fluency in languages they use in different contexts, or necessarily about following a national or international standard to maximize understanding with outsiders!

My father's family (in New York) stopped speaking German in his generation, so I'm not a native German speaker, as my grandfather was. I've been sad about this, especially with the intuition that I could "easily" have been a fluent native German bilingual speaker "for free" with no adverse consequences to my English proficiency. But maybe that's not literally true (maybe my English would have been more idiosyncratic and less standard, maybe I would have lost interest in German as a child and become bad at it, maybe I would have divided my reading time between languages and ended up with a slightly smaller English vocabulary?).

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh that's interesting! In my mind we are now on the cusp of being able to scan all these archives and have them be read by LLMs (in a first pass). Do you agree with that assessment, or am I being naive here?

I'm not in this field but I know someone who used to be and we've talked about it a fair bit. A quick overview of what's needed from what I understand: Old books aren't that neat, you tend to have a lot of notes and other documents, translations, scribal annotations from different eras interleaved or in the margins. You need to make decisions about that stuff as you go, which requires being informed about the context…

Indeed, and then there’s the fact that a single codex may contain multiple works, often unrelated (at least to modern eyes—copying of manuscripts was the old school way of adding a book to one’s library, so an abbot in one monastery, learning that another monastery had works X, Y and Z might request they be copied or send a monk to copy them and even though X was a work of theology, Y a poem by Virgil and Z an account of the best way to raise green beans in poor soil, they’d end up together, possibly not even starting a new page when one work ends and the next begins.

And of course, title pages are a later invention so the only way to know what’s in a manuscript is to actually read it.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#115
post #72
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Thaer whunce waes e mann fromm Nantucket...."

My favourite is perfectly clean and SFW. There was a Bohemian monk Who went to bed in a bunk He dreamt that Venus Was sucking his elbow And woke up all covered in perspiration.

Sis boom bee

kick ’em in the knee

Sis boom bass

kick ’em in the other knee.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#116
post #113
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I’ve been having similar thoughts - how amazing would it be to have a common global tongue. Last time I looked, Chinese and the Spanish were the two most spoken languages, at least counting native speakers - there are other legit ways to measure this! ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of... ) What I’m personally curious about is the goal to prevent extinction of languages. Isn’t that ful…

The official position of modern IAL advocates like Esperantists is that everyone should be bilingual in a local or family language as well as in the world language. There is someone on HN who has pointed out (I forgot exactly when) that this is actually not the historical tradition in Esperanto, but it's extremely strong nowadays. I guess one thing that leads to divergent attitudes about multilingualism and language…

That is a more reasonable position than trying to imagine or push a single language. And yes, acknowledging it’s not everywhere necessarily, it does seem like multilingualism is fairly automatic out of necessity in much of the world. As an American, I’m sad that the US scores so poorly on multilingualism. I’m very impressed when I travel how many people speak multiple languages. There are so many places where even entry level jobs require 2 or 3 languages.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh that's interesting! In my mind we are now on the cusp of being able to scan all these archives and have them be read by LLMs (in a first pass). Do you agree with that assessment, or am I being naive here?

I'm not in this field but I know someone who used to be and we've talked about it a fair bit. A quick overview of what's needed from what I understand: Old books aren't that neat, you tend to have a lot of notes and other documents, translations, scribal annotations from different eras interleaved or in the margins. You need to make decisions about that stuff as you go, which requires being informed about the context…

Yes, it is really hard to digitize a lot of these documents in a way that retains all of the information where it should belong. It's easy to scan modern books because the text runs in neat blocks and the output is neat blocks. But some texts just don't want to be wrangled like that into neat sentences and paragraphs that we expect, and all the gloss gone.

That said, I've found the recent LLMs will happily accept an entire book of scanned pages (just the images) and summarize the complete contents in one single go, which definitely has a very useful purpose in cataloging and indexing publications. For a project I'm doing I have millions of documents in hundreds of languages where only images of the pages exist, so I'm trying to get a good idea of the contents, then a user can choose to open the document and read the full text in its original format and layout.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#118
post #29

For those interested in learning old English, I’ve been going through Oswald Bera by Colin Gorrie - https://colingorrie.com/books/osweald-bera/ Basically it’s a full blown story/graded reader with no modern English apart from vocabulary. You build an understanding of the language as you read the book and what is initially gibberish becomes quite clear as you progress . It does help if you’ve had a lot of exposure to…

This is super interesting! I wonder if there is something like this for other languages!

There's tons, if you look up "[language] graded reader" or "[language] nature method."

Familia Romana by Hans Orberg is a great one for Latin. I frequently see people call it the gold standard for this kind of book, but they're all Latin enthusiasts, so they're not exactly unbiased.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#120
post #116
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The official position of modern IAL advocates like Esperantists is that everyone should be bilingual in a local or family language as well as in the world language. There is someone on HN who has pointed out (I forgot exactly when) that this is actually not the historical tradition in Esperanto, but it's extremely strong nowadays. I guess one thing that leads to divergent attitudes about multilingualism and language…

That is a more reasonable position than trying to imagine or push a single language. And yes, acknowledging it’s not everywhere necessarily, it does seem like multilingualism is fairly automatic out of necessity in much of the world. As an American, I’m sad that the US scores so poorly on multilingualism. I’m very impressed when I travel how many people speak multiple languages. There are so many places where even en…

Yeah, I know people's intuitions are also different there, as almost everyone I've met from Europe speaks 2-4 languages fluently and doesn't consider this exceptional. That makes multilingualism feel very attainable, because it's socially normal. From the U.S. point of view this is amazing, because it's taken for granted there, where it might be a celebrated achievement here.

What I know less about is how much time or effort that multilingualism took, whether peer pressure forced some reluctant kids to stick with languages they were otherwise less interested in, and whether there are any hidden costs.

An example could be replacement of some native vocabulary by English vocabulary (which is happening in many languages). This is a benefit for many people who work internationally, but it probably harms intergenerational understanding on some topics. For example, a Brazilian friend of mine gave a computing history lecture where he noted that Brazilians briefly used Portuguese vocabulary for computer engineering in the 1970s before it was supplanted by English loanwords. That change might mean that older speakers would understand younger speakers less well on some technical topics, or that younger speakers would have a harder time reading older technical documentation. From the point of view of monolingual Portuguese speakers, the internationalization of that vocabulary might not seem like a pure advantage.

I also know that some majority language speakers in Finland (who probably expect to speak English with non-Finnish speakers) greatly resent having to spend a lot of time studying Swedish, the "other national language", if they don't anticipate using it in their day-to-day lives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Swedish

In that case, it feels to some of them like the government is requiring them to be multilingual in a specific way that isn't their own preference or that doesn't align with their existing sense of ethnolinguistic identity. It doesn't seem like it's doing any kind of long-term harm, but I guess having any mandatory school subject that you don't enjoy can be pretty unpleasant, and maybe give you a more negative experience of formal education in general.

Some of the Swedish minority there doesn't prefer a future in which Finnish speakers only speak English to them (a phenomenon that already exists and that I think is growing over time). Even though it's officially legally protected, the practical status of their local minority language is being eroded by international culture.

I also have a native Finnish-speaking friend who enjoyed learning Swedish as a foreign language as a child, and ended up moving to Sweden and becoming a university lecturer (who usually teaches in Swedish). Foreign language learning can always be a benefit to anyone of any background.

To again brainstorm trade-offs, it's possible that that outcome is a bit disagreeable to her family back in Finland (who might have preferred her to stay closer to where she grew up, which might have been more likely if she had been more monolingual).

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