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Maladaptive Frugality

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Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#111

Post by steveBK123 »

amarant wrote: post #40

I do something kinda similar, I guess it counts as maladaptive frugality? Whenever I have something a little extra in my fridge, most often Italian prosciutto, I refrain from eating it, instead saving it for a "special occasion" even though it is, like, my favourite thing in the whole world. Eventually I have to throw the mouldy prosciutto away because I was too frugal to eat it. I'm practicing though, learning to ea…

This is a pretty common issue, I have to remind my spouse to just finish stuff. Eat it, and if it was so good.. buy more at the grocery next time.

One could try to reframe it that having it sit in the fridge going bad is a waste of fridge space/electricity/food/mental energy and unnecessary personal suffering.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#112

Post by RickJWagner »

Spending money sparingly is like reducing weight in an automobile. A car will get better gas mileage, go faster, break less often, and be more responsive with less weight.

So it is with spending. When you spend less, you can retire earlier, your finances are more secure, you feel less pressure and stress, etc. You have more flexibility in the kinds of jobs you can take. Perhaps best of all, you end up accumulating less stuff, and less complicated things, which makes your life simpler.

Frugality doesn’t get the flashy press that consumerism does, but it’s a winning life strategy.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#113

Post by HiPhish »

solatic wrote: post #61

The most helpful tool here, I've found, is maintaining a personal finances spreadsheet. It's one thing, without a spreadsheet, to have the emotion of "I'm not going to have enough and I need to save more to make sure I have enough." I'd argue it's even evolutionary; we want to make sure we have enough to get through the winter we know is coming. It's quite another when your spreadsheet shows you saved X, your monthly…

I think in the case of pathological frugality the spreadsheet approach could make things even worse. A whole 20% spent on enjoyment? I bet I could drive it down to 15%, maybe 10%. In fact, do I really need these things? Why not go down to 0%, maybe 5% once every few months. After all, I might need that money in the future.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#114

Post by anticorporate »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #85
freetime2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure it's more common for people not to save enough. But for people who are frugal and save diligently for most of their lives, there often comes a point where they cross a threshold where they have met all of their financial goals, and the "problem" is no longer how save money but to enjoy spending it. And this can be a real challenge for people who have built up deeply ingrained saving habits. My mother, for ex…

When I started driving my car had vinyl seats that you had to peel yourself out of on a hot day, a plastic steering wheel that you could barely touch when the sun was out, hand wound windows, fixed seat belts and a handbrake that barely worked. Even the cheapest car on the market feels luxurious now. In comparison the difference between a Toyota and a Lexus is marginal. Expensive cars are mostly about status signalli…

I'm perhaps pathologically frugal myself. I've found for myself the best compromise is to force yourself to pick at least one feature other than cost. We've got a 17 year old Toyota Yaris that I tell myself is for fuel efficiency, and an old Ford Ranger because I wanted at least one of our vehicles to be able to move sheet goods. Technically I could probably walk onto most any lot and pay cash for whatever I wanted, but I know there's zero chance I'll ever do that.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#115

Post by terrabitz »

This is one of the reasons I like YNAB (both their app and their method). One of their core principles is to align your spending -- including future spending, aka saving -- with your values. Spending on the wrong things isn't good, but neither is saving without clear purpose.

My wife and I both came from fairly frugal households growing up, so frugality is often our default. It's been a helpful exercise to periodically ask ourselves "what do we actually value, and what tradeoffs should we make", then update our plan to match.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#116

Post by 59percentmore »

chromacity wrote: post #4

Most people in the US are pulled into living on credit straight out of school. You get a student loan, then a car loan, then a credit card, then a mortgage. You finance vacations, appliances, kitchen remodels, smartphones - mostly to keep up with friends and coworkers who finance their lifestyles too. A lot of people are in non-stop debt from the age of 18 to 55, if not longer. By most estimates, only about 10-20% of…

Debt is also a way of normalizing, essentially, wage theft. You're encouraged to use credit to bridge gaps when what you're paid doesn't cover your necessities, let alone other expenses that you're expected to take on. When you can't pay back the debt you took out to live what is considered a normal or even frugal lifestyle, the justice system is used as a cudgel against you, often in the form of professional debt collectors and their attorneys suing you in small claims court (a venue which was established for laymen), where they abuse the lax rules to extricate full payment on a debt they bought for pennies on the dollar.

Somewhat related, here is a video from a guy trying to avoid just this sort of scenario by refusing to put his company's business expenses on his personal credit; follow-ups show the price he's paying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFZIxJyKgE8

If society expects you to consume, you should be paid enough to support it. A system that leverages greater and greater amounts of its future to pay for the present eventually reaches a point where it is statistically unlikely that the debt will ever be paid back. That's when all hell breaks loose.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#117

Post by terrabitz »

Havoc wrote: post #77

> What I took away: eating at a good restaurant was bad, taking out cheap food was good because it saved money. Any sort of morality like framing around it is likely to lead to issues imo. The closer you can get to an analytical approach the better I think - can I afford it, is it good value for money, is it useful/furthers my goals etc

It's really a shame. I grew up in a frugal household that venerated Dave Ramsey, and there was a ton of moralizing of finances that didn't need to be moralized. Stuff like "debt is always evil, buying frivolous things like fancy coffees is stupid", etc.

There are unfortunately a lot of people that base their spending and saving decisions not on what they actually value or what their goals are. Rather, they base them on fear of breaking the moral rules.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#118

Post by anticorporate »

I struggle with this. I feel so guilty for replacing my four year old phone this week, even though my old phone has had hardware issues for more than a year. There wasn't really a puritanical element for me, it seems to be just from growing below the poverty line.

The flip side of it is I've accidentally joined the FIRE movement. Making a moderate tech salary for most of my time since graduating college but feeling guilty about spending means I'm now in my early 40s and don't really have to work anymore, or at least, could comfortably take any job I want without worrying about what the pay rate is. I don't really know how to feel about that. After my last job in tech I took about a half a year off before realizing I also felt guilty about not working, and took a job I wanted. But there are also weird feelings from working because you want to at a workplace where most everyone else is working because they have to.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#119

Post by drakenot »

59percentmore wrote: post #116
chromacity wrote: post #4

Most people in the US are pulled into living on credit straight out of school. You get a student loan, then a car loan, then a credit card, then a mortgage. You finance vacations, appliances, kitchen remodels, smartphones - mostly to keep up with friends and coworkers who finance their lifestyles too. A lot of people are in non-stop debt from the age of 18 to 55, if not longer. By most estimates, only about 10-20% of…

Debt is also a way of normalizing, essentially, wage theft. You're encouraged to use credit to bridge gaps when what you're paid doesn't cover your necessities, let alone other expenses that you're expected to take on. When you can't pay back the debt you took out to live what is considered a normal or even frugal lifestyle, the justice system is used as a cudgel against you, often in the form of professional debt co…

I have zero consumer debt and pay off any credit card at the end of the month.

But I don’t mind work expenses on my personal card? I get reward benefits for a sizable chunk of expenses that I’m directly reimbursed for?

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#120

Post by DonsDiscountGas »

pjc50 wrote: post #88
jimbob45 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a credit card is like having a video game passive that makes everything permanently 2% cheaper. Everything should be put on a credit card for that discount as well as fraud protection provided you are disciplined enough to never ever ever ever ever ever carry a balance.

This is US-specific advice; EU capped merchant fees, and therefore you don't get a free 2% reward at their expense. The fraud protection and insurance can be useful though.

You still get a 30 day interest free loan. Assuming you pay the full balance.
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