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Email could have been X.400 times better

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Re: Email could have been X.400 times better

#111

Post by altairprime »

pembrook wrote: post #106
addaon wrote: post #99

I still think the missing opportunity with e-mail was for the USPS (back in the US-dominant internet days) to take a leading role and implement "e-stamps." Provide a subscription service that managed a per-user account, cost a 1¢ stamp to send a message, and guaranteed delivery of messages received with a 1¢ stamp on them -- with the received stamp value being put in the user's account, so a user who received more ma…

Not sure it was a big missed opportunity to create a communication protocol that...financially penalizes communication? Sounds like a really fast way to kill a network instead of grow it into a 4B daily active user staple like email is today. You'd basically ensure that email would ONLY be spam, because marketers would be the only ones willing spend money to reach people. Every time I see someone suggest micropayment…

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Re: Email could have been X.400 times better

#112

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

pembrook wrote: post #106
addaon wrote: post #99

I still think the missing opportunity with e-mail was for the USPS (back in the US-dominant internet days) to take a leading role and implement "e-stamps." Provide a subscription service that managed a per-user account, cost a 1¢ stamp to send a message, and guaranteed delivery of messages received with a 1¢ stamp on them -- with the received stamp value being put in the user's account, so a user who received more ma…

Not sure it was a big missed opportunity to create a communication protocol that...financially penalizes communication? Sounds like a really fast way to kill a network instead of grow it into a 4B daily active user staple like email is today. You'd basically ensure that email would ONLY be spam, because marketers would be the only ones willing spend money to reach people. Every time I see someone suggest micropayment…

This is what Xanadu and OSI were going to deliver: real world pay services recast on electronic networks. That could never compete against unmetered communication delivered by the likes of FidoNet, Compuserve, and the open internet protocols.

Re: Email could have been X.400 times better

#113

Post by MrDrMcCoy »

chuckadams wrote: post #75
jcranmer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WebPKI is derived from X.509, but I don't think X.509 lives on anymore. X.500 was stripped down to form LDAP, which is still in very heavy use today. There's still some X.400 systems in existence. I think some of the early cellphone generations may have used the ITU standards in the physical layer? Of course, the biggest--and weirdest--success of the ITU standards is that the OSI model is still frequently the way net…

There's an entire book devoted to ripping up the OSI model: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iL0fYmMmariFoSvLd9U5nPVH...

Everyone who knows what the OSI model is should read at least some of this book.

Re: Email could have been X.400 times better

#114

Post by TZubiri »

addaon wrote: post #99

I still think the missing opportunity with e-mail was for the USPS (back in the US-dominant internet days) to take a leading role and implement "e-stamps." Provide a subscription service that managed a per-user account, cost a 1¢ stamp to send a message, and guaranteed delivery of messages received with a 1¢ stamp on them -- with the received stamp value being put in the user's account, so a user who received more ma…

Have you heard about hashcash? They propose a novel similar mechanism for postage for email with some interesting theoretical consequences.

Re: Email could have been X.400 times better

#115

Post by userbinator »

pjc50 wrote: post #14

>> SMTP "“didn’t win because it was ‘better,’” he argued, but “just because it was easier to implement." Yes - and this is actually really important! It's true of most of the important early internet technologies. It's the entire reason "internet" standards won over "telco" (in this case ITU) standards - the latter could only be deployed by big coordinated efforts, while internet standards let individual decentralize…

H.261-264 video codecs, depending on your definition of "win".

Re: Email could have been X.400 times better

#116

Post by TZubiri »

Ferdinandpferd wrote: post #108
addaon wrote: post #99

I still think the missing opportunity with e-mail was for the USPS (back in the US-dominant internet days) to take a leading role and implement "e-stamps." Provide a subscription service that managed a per-user account, cost a 1¢ stamp to send a message, and guaranteed delivery of messages received with a 1¢ stamp on them -- with the received stamp value being put in the user's account, so a user who received more ma…

I found the artificial cost ideas interesting at the time but I think the Ad landscape shows that it doesn't really work. All but the least sinister scammers would happily pay pretty well and have to be prevented from buying ads unless financial regulations could prevent any kind of laundering proceeds back into more ads.

It's worth noting the difference between a fixed cost for sending a message, and a fixed inventory of messaging, and an auction bid system where bids are maximized by competition unless bidders form a cartel.

Funnily enough, if collusion is prohibited, the goal of such a law would be more competition, but the result is more mergers and monopolies, up until the point where antitrust kicks in and ad-hoc limits the monopoly, so each industry ends up with 1 bidder, or 2-3 tops

Re: Email could have been X.400 times better

#117

Post by somat »

philipstorry wrote: post #22

SMTP won because it was simpler, but it's probably good to look at why it was simpler. SMTP handled routing by piggybacking on DNS. When an email arrives the SMTP server looks at the domain part of the address, does a query, and then attempts transfer it to the results of that query. Very simple. And, it turns out, immensely scalable. You don't need to maintain any routing information unless you're overriding DNS for…

Ehhh.. This is a bit revisionist for a couple reasons.

1. smtp predates dns. or really even most of the internet. It was originally designed to work over uucp.

2. early smtp used bang paths (remember those) where the route or partial route is baked into the path.

Re: Email could have been X.400 times better

#118

Post by addaon »

pembrook wrote: post #106
addaon wrote: post #99

I still think the missing opportunity with e-mail was for the USPS (back in the US-dominant internet days) to take a leading role and implement "e-stamps." Provide a subscription service that managed a per-user account, cost a 1¢ stamp to send a message, and guaranteed delivery of messages received with a 1¢ stamp on them -- with the received stamp value being put in the user's account, so a user who received more ma…

Not sure it was a big missed opportunity to create a communication protocol that...financially penalizes communication? Sounds like a really fast way to kill a network instead of grow it into a 4B daily active user staple like email is today. You'd basically ensure that email would ONLY be spam, because marketers would be the only ones willing spend money to reach people. Every time I see someone suggest micropayment…

Not all communication has positive value. 99.9% of the e-mail I receive not only has no value in itself, but the overhead of managing it, ignoring it, and categorizing it is highly negative -- and decreases the value of the valuable e-mail I receive, because I can't be arsed to check it promptly or consistently because of the overhead of the dreck. But as others point out, even charging money would only reduce spam by an order of magnitude or two, not entirely -- and since I send 1 - 10 actual e-mails a week, I only need to receive a dozen a week to never pay a penny.

My primary goal is not to send e-mail for free -- my primary goal is to have reliable, low-overhead communication with humans. Having this sponsored by spammers is a fine start, but even if I paid a dollar a year or so, that would be much lower overhead than even a day's worth of looking through spam is today (at the rate I value my time -- but even if you value your time orders of magnitudes less, the payoff is there).

Re: Email could have been X.400 times better

#119

Post by wat10000 »

pjc50 wrote: post #25
MisterTea wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the entire reason "internet" standards won over "telco" (in this case ITU) standards - the latter could only be deployed by big coordinated efforts, Anyone remember the promise of ATM networking in the 90's? It was telecom grade networking which used circuit switched networking that would handle voice, video and data down one pipe. Instead of carelessly flinging packets into the ether like an savage, you had a…

> Ethernet had to adapt to deterministic real-time needs Without being able to get too into the telco detail, I think the lesson was that hard realtime is both much harder to achieve and not actually needed . People will happily chat over nondeterministic Zoom and Discord. It's both psychological and slightly paradoxical. Once you let go of saying "the system MUST GUARANTEE this property", you get a much cheaper, bet…

I saw a story once, which may well be completely made up, about why AT&T got out of the cell phone business. They had a research project, but reliability was an issue. They couldn't see a way to do better than 1 dropped call in 10,000. Their standard for POTS at the time was 1 in 2 billion.

Seeing that the tech would never be good enough, they sold off the whole thing for cheap. Years later, they bought it back for way, way more money because they desperately needed to get into the cell phone business that was clearly headed to the moon.

I totally understand the pride they had in the reliability of their system, but it turns out that dropped calls just aren't that big of a deal when you can quickly redial and reconnect.

Re: Email could have been X.400 times better

#120

Post by addaon »

halJordan wrote: post #105
addaon wrote: post #99

I still think the missing opportunity with e-mail was for the USPS (back in the US-dominant internet days) to take a leading role and implement "e-stamps." Provide a subscription service that managed a per-user account, cost a 1¢ stamp to send a message, and guaranteed delivery of messages received with a 1¢ stamp on them -- with the received stamp value being put in the user's account, so a user who received more ma…

The physical usps works because, the usps controls every inbox and every outbox; everyone has to have an inbox/outbox with the single carrier, and no one can actually reject or refuse mail. All the downsides of iMessage but the government reading your email bc it's not an encrypted protocol. Spam exists in the real world, this wouldn't have worked either

> Spam exists in the real world, this wouldn't have worked either.

A two-or-more order-of-magnitude reduction in a problem seems like a good start and a worthwhile step, not something to disregard because it's not 100%…

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