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Over-editing refers to a model modifying code beyond what is necessary

nrehiew.github.io

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Re: Over-editing refers to a model modifying code beyond what is necessary

#111
post #22

I think the industry has leaned waaay too far into completely autonomous agents. Of course there are reasons why corporations would want to completely replace their engineers with fully autonomous coding agents, but for those of us who actually work developing software, why would we want less and less autonomy? Especially since it alienates us from our codebases, requiring more effort in the future to gain an underst…

When you steer a car, there isn’t this degree of probability about the output. How do you emulate that with llm’s? I suppose the objective is to get variance down to the point it’s barely noticeable. But not sure it’ll get to that place based on accumulating more data and re-training models.

Well, the point is by steering it you can get both more expected/reproducible output, and you can correct bad assumptions before they become solidified in your codebase.

You can get pretty close to reproducible output by narrowing the scope and using certain prompts/harnesses. As in, you get roughly the same output each time with identical prompts, assuming you're using a model which doesn't change every few hours to deal with load, and you aren't using a coding harness that changes how it works every update. It's not deterministic, but if you ask it for a scoped implementation you essentially get the same implementation every time, with some minor and usually irrelevant differences.

So you can imagine with a stable model and harness, with steering you can basically get what you ask it for each time. Tooling that exploits this fact can be much more akin to using an autocomplete, but instead of a line of code it's blocks of code, functions, etc.

A harness that makes it easy to steer means you can basically write the same code you would have otherwise written, just faster. Which I think is a genuine win, not only from a productivity standpoint but also you maintain control over the codebase and you aren't alienated or disenfranchised from the output, and it's much easier to make corrections or write your own implementations where you feel it's necessary. It becomes more of an augmentation and less of a replacement.

Re: Over-editing refers to a model modifying code beyond what is necessary

#112
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you letting the LLM drive? Don't turn on auto-approve, approve every command the agent runs. Don't let it make design or architecture decisions, you choose how it is built and you TELL that clanker what's what! No joke, if you treat the AI like a tool then you'll get more mileage out of it. You won't get 10x gains, but you will still understand the code.

Because its SO much faster not to have to do all that. I think 10x is no joke, and if you're doing MVP, its just not worth the mental effort.

POC, sure (although 10x-ing a POC doesn't actually get you 10x velocity). MVP, though? No way. Today's frontier models are nowhere near smart enough to write a non-trivial product (i.e. something that others are meant to use), minimal or otherwise, without careful supervision. Anthropic weren't able to get agents to write even a usable C compiler (not a huge deal to begin with), even with a practically infeasible amount of preparatory work (write a full spec and a reference implementation, train the model on them as well as on relevant textbooks, write thousands of tests). The agents just make too many critical architectural mistakes that pretty much guarantee you won't be able to evolve the product for long, with or without their help. The software they write has an evolution horizon between zero days and about a year, after which the codebase is effectively bricked.

Re: Over-editing refers to a model modifying code beyond what is necessary

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but I also think that giving the LLM free rein is also extremely unpleasant and difficult. And you still need to review the resulting code.

I don't think there's anything difficult or unpleasant about the process of letting the LLM run free, that's the whole point, it's nearly frictionless. Which includes not reviewing the code carefully. You say "need" but you mean "ought".

Friction is not the only source of displeasure. I've tried out vibe-coding for something non-trivial; I found it deeply unpleasant.

Re: Over-editing refers to a model modifying code beyond what is necessary

#114

I'm building a website in Astro and today I've been scaffolding localization. I asked Codex 5.4 x-high to follow the official guidelines for localization and from that perspective the implementation was good. But then it decides to re-write the copy and layout of all pages. They were placeholders, but still? Codex also has a tendency to apply unwanted styles everywhere. I see similar tendencies in backend and data wo…

I never use xhigh due to overthinking. I find high nearly always works better. Purely anecdotal.

This is even the official OpenAI guideline too.

Re: Over-editing refers to a model modifying code beyond what is necessary

#115
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you letting the LLM drive? Don't turn on auto-approve, approve every command the agent runs. Don't let it make design or architecture decisions, you choose how it is built and you TELL that clanker what's what! No joke, if you treat the AI like a tool then you'll get more mileage out of it. You won't get 10x gains, but you will still understand the code.

Personally I've found "carefully review every move it makes" to be an extremely unpleasant and difficult workflow. The effort needed to parse every action is immense, but there's a complete absence of creative engagement - no chance of flow state. Just the worst kind of work which I've been unable to sustain, unfortunately. At this point I mostly still do work by hand.

It's unpleasant for me at normal speed settings, but on fast mode it works really well: the AI does changes quickly enough for me to stay focused.

Of course this requires being fortunate enough that you have one of those AI positive employers where you can spend lots of money on clankers.

I don't review every move it makes, I rather have a workflow where I first ask it questions about the code, and it looks around and explores various design choices. then i nudge it towards the design choice I think is best, etc. That asking around about the code also loads up the context in the appropriate manner so that the AI knows how to do the change well.

It's a me in the loop workflow but that prevents a lot of bugs, makes me aware of the design choices, and thanks to fast mode, it is more pleasant and much faster than me manually doing it.

Re: Over-editing refers to a model modifying code beyond what is necessary

#116
post #58

I've not seen over-editing in Claude Code or Codex in quite a while, so I was interested to see the prompts being used for this study. I think they're in here, last edited 8 months ago: https://github.com/nreHieW/fyp/blob/5a4023e4d1f287ac73a616b5...

Just had one today where GPT-5.4, instead of adding the 10 lines I asked for (an addition that could be done pretty mechanically by just looking at some previous code and adding a similar thing with different/new variable names) proceeded to rewrite 50 lines instead, because it was "cleaner". It was not. It also didn't originally add the thing I asked for either, which was perplexing.

Over-editing is definitely not some long gone problem. This was on xhigh thinking, because I forgot to set it to lower.

Re: Over-editing refers to a model modifying code beyond what is necessary

#117
post #10
post #5

Here, the author means the agent over-edits code. But agents also do "too much": as in they touch multiple files, run tests, do deployments, run smoke tests, etc... And all of this gets abstracted away. On one hand, its incredible. But on the other hand I have deep anxiety over this: 1. I have no real understanding of what is actually happening under the hood. The ease of just accepting a prompt to run some script th…

Why are you letting the LLM drive? Don't turn on auto-approve, approve every command the agent runs. Don't let it make design or architecture decisions, you choose how it is built and you TELL that clanker what's what! No joke, if you treat the AI like a tool then you'll get more mileage out of it. You won't get 10x gains, but you will still understand the code.

For that kind of flow, I prefer to work without AI.

Re: Over-editing refers to a model modifying code beyond what is necessary

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs are deterministic, too. I know there is randomness in the choosing tokens, but that randomness is derived from a random seed that can be repeated.

If I understand your argument, you're saying that models can be deterministic, right? Care to point to any that are set up to be deterministic? Did you ever stop to think about why no one can get any use out of a model with temp set to zero?

llama.cpp is deterministic when run with a specified PRNG seed, at least when running on CPU without caching. This is true regardless of temperature. But when people say "non-deterministic", they really mean something closer to "chaotic", i.e. the output can vary greatly with small changes to input, and there is no reliable way to predict when this will happen without running the full calculation. This is very different behavior from traditional compilers.

Re: Over-editing refers to a model modifying code beyond what is necessary

#119
Interesting, my assumption used to be that models over-edit when they're run with optimizations in attention blocks (quantization, Gated DeltaNet, sliding window etc.). I.e. they can't always reconstruct the original code precisely and may end up re-inventing some bits. Can't it be one of the reasons too?
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